Hot load, flyers or tuner

[antunRC]

OK, here’s the full story.
I was shooting three different loads that day:

- Match #1: 0.15 gr hotter than my standard load
- Match #2: standard load
- Match #3: 0.30 gr hotter than my standard load

The target I posted in my first post is from Match #3 (0.30 gr hotter than standard).

Yes, I did get caught by a few wind switches, and I took some risks on a few shots, but overall those paid off. In Match #3, though, I felt like I did everything right, yet I still got some unexpected high shots. Could a 0.3 gr increase in a big magnum cause these kinds of fliers? It could be load-related, but I’m not certain.

What bothers me even more is this: if I go into a match preloaded and start seeing this happen, what options do I really have at that point?

 

[Ccrider]

I have been plagued with similar issues. If I can’t solve it this season I may just throw n the towel.

Don’t feel left out. I think we all have this problem at times. Some times it takes longer than others to figure it out. Pulling hair I don’t have out at 330y (5 shot groups):

 

[tom]

OK, here’s the full story.
I was shooting three different loads that day:

- Match #1: 0.15 gr hotter than my standard load
- Match #2: standard load
- Match #3: 0.30 gr hotter than my standard load

The target I posted in my first post is from Match #3 (0.30 gr hotter than standard).

Yes, I did get caught by a few wind switches, and I took some risks on a few shots, but overall those paid off. In Match #3, though, I felt like I did everything right, yet I still got some unexpected high shots. Could a 0.3 gr increase in a big magnum cause these kinds of fliers? It could be load-related, but I’m not certain.

What bothers me even more is this: if I go into a match preloaded and start seeing this happen, what options do I really have at that point?

Depends on the 0.3, but yes it's possible. I would have to dig out a 300 wsm ladder, but it's possible depending on the load you picked. Slower velocity doesn't always mean it needs powder added. Equal velocity doesn't always mean you don't have to add or subtract powder. Sometimes velocity will be correct in predicting which direction to move powder, but it will be not to the ratio of speed difference. All of that can be true with the different powders, and outside atmosphere aren't the only things in the picture.

Didn't you settle on v555? I want to try it this season also and don't yet know how it will go, but it laddered decent. The addition of "temp stable" double based powders are reasonably new, and we'll have to learn as we go.

Tom

 

[Alex Wheeler]

OK, here’s the full story.
I was shooting three different loads that day:

- Match #1: 0.15 gr hotter than my standard load
- Match #2: standard load
- Match #3: 0.30 gr hotter than my standard load

The target I posted in my first post is from Match #3 (0.30 gr hotter than standard).

Yes, I did get caught by a few wind switches, and I took some risks on a few shots, but overall those paid off. In Match #3, though, I felt like I did everything right, yet I still got some unexpected high shots. Could a 0.3 gr increase in a big magnum cause these kinds of fliers? It could be load-related, but I’m not certain.

What bothers me even more is this: if I go into a match preloaded and start seeing this happen, what options do I really have at that point?

.3 would take my 338 lapua imp burning 100 grains of powder out of tune. You will certainly see .3 in a wsm make a change. Im only seeing what looks like a vertical tune in your first target. The other have decent wad with some shots high. That could be Berger spitters but outside of components I would mainly be looking at the grip on the bullet. Annealing and neck tension has caused me groups like that.

 

[Ccrider]

Annealing and neck tension has caused me groups like that.

Please tell us more about this statement.

 

[tom]

. I would have to dig out a 300 wsm ladder,

I found one to share. Looks like "it depends" lol.

Just don't load 60.71 and then bump it .3!

Tom

 

[antunRC]

Thank you, @tom and @Alex Wheeler

Everything makes sense to me. More work will need to be done once the temperature improves a bit here.

@tom this ladder looks like it was done with H4350 powder. I have a lot of data on N555, but I’m unable to contact you because your private messages are disabled.

 

[tom]

Thank you, @tom and @Alex Wheeler

Everything makes sense to me. More work will need to be done once the temperature improves a bit here.

@tom this ladder looks like it was done with H4350 powder. I have a lot of data on N555, but I’m unable to contact you because your private messages are disabled.

Yes, I shot h4350 all last year. Just getting into development with v555 to see where it goes with this year's barrel.

Hey, I found examples of flyers!



Tom

 

[ELR LVR]

Don’t feel left out. I think we all have this problem at times. Some times it takes longer than others to figure it out. Pulling hair I don’t have out at 330y (5 shot groups):
View attachment 1725554View attachment 1725555View attachment 1725556

seating depth
or
wrong bullet (using factory bullets and not sorting them closely enough)

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Please tell us more about this statement.

I have had rifles that would loose a shot or many shots high. Not enough to call them fliers, but in a consistent way. Some times the group was just blobby sometimes it looked like a double group. The most extreme one I had shot out of this world at 600yds but would have tight groups at 1k but lost enough high that it was basically double grouping. I could not fix it, before pulling the barrel I tested neck tension and going from .002 to .005 cured that. But you couldnt see it at 600. Short range and midrange group is quite a bit more forgiving to tuning than long range group. All the demons show up, and weird things can happen. Long range group is the toughest tuning there is. Annealing has been responsible for many a loose shot out high as well.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I have had rifles that would loose a shot or many shots high. Not enough to call them fliers, but in a consistent way. Some times the group was just blobby sometimes it looked like a double group. The most extreme one I had shot out of this world at 600yds but would have tight groups at 1k but lost enough high that it was basically double grouping. I could not fix it, before pulling the barrel I tested neck tension and going from .002 to .005 cured that. But you couldnt see it at 600. Short range and midrange group is quite a bit more forgiving to tuning than long range group. All the demons show up, and weird things can happen. Long range group is the toughest tuning there is. Annealing has been responsible for many a loose shot out high as well.

Winning tunes in LR can be good for last place at SR matches(moa). That's just a fact. It isn't based on bias but real results. I'm not saying one is harder than the other but one uses flags a lot more than the other, and I'll leave it at that.

 

[Ccrider]

Annealing has been responsible for many a loose shot out high as well.

What about annealing causes the loose shot?

 

[Ahhnother8]

The average velocity, on target, difference between the 3 loads in negligible. The SD and ES numbers are UGLY. Likely more than enough to explain even more vertical dispersion than what you are actually seeing on the target. The question that needs answered: Is the huge ES at the muzzle or ONLY at the target? That will determine where to begin looking for a solution.

 

[antunRC]

The average velocity, on target, difference between the 3 loads in negligible. The SD and ES numbers are UGLY. Likely more than enough to explain even more vertical dispersion than what you are actually seeing on the target. The question that needs answered: Is the huge ES at the muzzle or ONLY at the target? That will determine where to begin looking for a solution.

It was very windy, rest of targets had similar or worse ES.

 

[JFrank]

Winning tunes in LR can be good for last place at SR matches(moa). That's just a fact. It isn't based on bias but real results. I'm not saying one is harder than the other but one uses flags a lot more than the other, and I'll leave it at that.

Do you feel that a winning 100 yard tune will be successful at 1000 yards ?
I think I would like to see this played out, let’s say each national champion shoot against each other at both distances. Who wins ?

 

[tom]

Now divide by 26, since it's the typical ballistic come up from 100 for the commonly used 6s....10x distance but 26x the ballistics, and a 3.0 doesn't necessarily get it done for the win....not bad from that perspective!

Tom

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Winning tunes in LR can be good for last place at SR matches(moa). That's just a fact. It isn't based on bias but real results. I'm not saying one is harder than the other but one uses flags a lot more than the other, and I'll leave it at that.

Sure if you look at the moa and not the 10x distance. If all you know is tuning a ppc or 30 br, theres a whole nother world out there of analness. You dont know what you dont know.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

What about annealing causes the loose shot?

In some cases a powder combo likes more start pressure. Annealing softens the neck and you cant get the same grip on the bullet, even with smaller bushings.

 

[marchx]

It looks like 2 weeks of testing to figure that out. Good luck.

 

[taylorw]

In some cases a powder combo likes more start pressure. Annealing softens the neck and you cant get the same grip on the bullet, even with smaller bushings.

I agree, Alex and have a good example of this with my 7saum. After 5 firings, I annealed the brass and could not get it to shoot small again, no matter the bushing used. Ended up buying new brass and it brought the groups back in.