"0" Group at 1000 yards

[284winner]

I can't even imagine it, let alone believe it. Ive only done 2 or 3 with my rifle (several with a friend's rifle) at 100yds

Yes the shooter is key as well. Sure the gun must be as good as they get but in this case, the shooter plays a major role. I'm not that guy. No matter how much practice, most will never even get close.

 

[clowdis]

How would you verify 5 shots in a .0 group at 1,000 yards?

 

[Owens85]

How would you verify 5 shots in a .0 group at 1,000 yards?

A zero group at 1000 can be .999 of a inch

 

[Jvance513]

How would you verify 5 shots in a .0 group at 1,000 yards?

This is currently the problem many people are running into at 600 yards. The groups are getting so small that people are accidently getting DQ’d with “4 on” it won’t be long and we will have to go to a rolling backer or shot markers for verification.

 

[Mulligan]

This is currently the problem many people are running into at 600 yards. The groups are getting so small that people are accidently getting DQ’d with “4 on” it won’t be long and we will have to go to a rolling backer or shot markers for verification.

There was a huge discussion about this a few years ago on this forum.
If we (shooters) do not get proactive about this, we will loose shooters. I know of a few times this happened……. When you knot them up and cannot prove all five are there, it ain’t good.
CW

 

[quest450]

Shooter ALWAYS gets the benefit of the doubt when the group is really small whenever I had the honor to be one of the judges.

 

[Jvance513]

Shooter ALWAYS gets the benefit of the doubt when the group is really small whenever I had the honor to be one of the judges.

I agree, unfortunately not everyone is that way. I’ve seen it myself and seen targets get challenged and still lose even though it’s clear there’s a double. Also some refs need to understand that in that scoring shed you’re an unbiased party for that time and not a competitor. I’ve also seen this happen…

 

[Mulligan]

This is the 600 yard group that we are all trying to beat.
I agree that Bart set the mark pretty darn high, but our rigs are up to the task. Getting all the person (mind, body, attitude, in the present), ammo, and weather to cooperate is the challenge.

The next time a group this small or smaller is shot, will all the judges have to tools available to say it's 5 shots. Are we setting the judges up for failure by not having moving backers or e-target backers?

CW

 

[clowdis]

A zero group at 1000 can be .999 of a inch

A zero group would be .099 or less? Either way a Shotmarker would tell you how many shots and where they are. Maybe 600/1,000 BR shooters should start heading that way.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Theres that discusion. The only warning I have is some one has to set all this stuff up and its a lot of work. Eventually you run out of volunteers. I have scored many 1000s of targets and have only dq'd one and the jackets were coming off on the target hitting guys in the pits. An obvious jacket failure.

 

[Owens85]

A zero group would be .099 or less? Either way a Shotmarker would tell you how many shots and where they are. Maybe 600/1,000 BR shooters should start heading that way.

No at 100 that would be but at 1000 a zero group is under one inch.

 

[Evan]

At 1000, with live pits, the person pulling the target counts the shots. If there is a tiny little group and the puller says there where 5 in the berm, then there is no question. These rifles don't put 4 into an inch and throw one 24” off the target without the puller noticing.

At 600, getting a shot count is harder. Do we just need a witness behind each shooter counting the shots sent down-range? Again, if it’s verified that they sent five shots with no silver streakers or puffs and it’s a tiny little group on target, then all five are in that group.

In another thread we’re talking about fracturing BR and alienating shooters. The quickest way I know to get someone to quit is to DQ or invalidate their target because you “think” a shot might be missing.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The whole goal is to put them in the same hole and if you did you would get a dq lol. Like Evan said you dont shoot 4 into an inch and miss on the 5th. Scorers just need to look a little harder, I have seen a lot of dq targets that had 5 shots. Bart sent me one that was very obvious. Got to give the shooter the benefit.

 

[jelenko]

Is there a need for a verifier to ensure competitors actually fire 5 shots?

 

[Evan]

Is there a need for a verifier to ensure competitors actually fire 5 shots?

Unfortunately, guys occasionally only shoot 4 or they shoot 6 because they lost count.

 

[Rodney]

I had this situation happen to me at a 600 yard match. I always lay 5 rounds out when shooting for score so I don’t lose count. After the relay the pits radioed back I had 4 hits. I’m looking at 5 empty brass on the towel. I told the RO I had fired 5 rounds. When scored I was penalized for only 4 shots scored. One of the bullet holes was slightly out of round. Everyone that has looked at the target agreed it’s a doubler, which means 5 shots. My other 3 targets that day all had 5 shots on them. Didn’t protest because I was not in contention for the win. That target hangs in my office. I know what I shot that day and it was a 50 and 2X. Don’t care what the score keeper says. Like another gentleman said earlier, you don’t put 4 rounds in a small group and then miss the entire target. Mine were all inside the 10 ring.

 

[Evan]

I had this situation happen to me at a 600 yard match. I always lay 5 rounds out when shooting for score so I don’t lose count. After the relay the pits radioed back I had 4 hits. I’m looking at 5 empty brass on the towel. I told the RO I had fired 5 rounds. When scored I was penalized for only 4 shots scored. One of the bullet holes was slightly out of round. Everyone that has looked at the target agreed it’s a doubler, which means 5 shots. My other 3 targets that day all had 5 shots on them. Didn’t protest because I was not in contention for the win. That target hangs in my office. I know what I shot that day and it was a 50 and 2X. Don’t care what the score keeper says. Like another gentleman said earlier, you don’t put 4 rounds in a small group and then miss the entire target. Mine were all inside the 10 ring.

I know a couple guys who quit when their record-setting targets were DQed. When I score, shooter always gets the benefit of the doubt. This is a gentlemanly sport. There’s no massive prize pot or money on the line beyond the entry fees, and arguably even if there was - this is a game we’re playing together and we should act with honesty and integrity and accept that others are doing the same.

 

[Florida Wally]

Unfortunately, guys occasionally only shoot 4 or they shoot 6 because they lost count.

A Shotmarker could be set up to count the shots on target. It will tell you how many bullets went past the sensors. The scores from the paper targets could still be used.

 

[quest450]

I don't want to turn this into a electronic target pissing match BUT that's a lot of money to just count shots, what's next ??
After a club spent 10-15K on electronic targets next step would be to use them in a sanctioned match, I wouldn't want to see someone shooting a potential world record playing a video game.

 

[jelenko]

I don't want to turn this into a electronic target pissing match BUT that's a lot of money to just count shots, what's next ??
After a club spent 10-15K on electronic targets next step would be to use them in a sanctioned match, I wouldn't want to see someone shooting a potential world record playing a video game.

Olympics are shot on e targets.

And, the suggestion was to use the e target only to count the shots.