2024 Olympics 50m Rifle: Cant!

[DR_2297]

When the stock doesn’t have cast in it then canting is the way you get the comb close to your face so you aren’t leaning your head over to align the sight while also placing the butt stock optimally in the shoulder. A LOT of the best prone shooters will shoot with a cant.

A lot of the best offhand shooters that don’t have cast adjustability in the stock will do the same (think service rifle).

If you can’t rotate your sights to be vertical while shooting a cant then adjusting becomes a trig problem and that is a PITA

 

[Tim Slater]

When the stock doesn’t have cast in it then canting is the way you get the comb close to your face so you aren’t leaning your head over to align the sight while also placing the butt stock optimally in the shoulder. A LOT of the best prone shooters will shoot with a cant.

If you can’t rotate your sights to be vertical while shooting a cant then adjusting becomes a trig problem and that is a PITA

I'm fairly certain that the 1964, 1980, 1984, 1988, 1996, and 2016 Olympic prone champions shot with a cant. I suspect the 1992 and 2000 Gold medallists would have shot without a cant if they didn't use offset sights.

The first World Record 600 ex 600 scores on both the 1958 and 1989 UIT targets were both shot with the rifle canted (by Alister Allan and Vietcheslav Botchkatev if anyone's interested). If Harald Stenvaag bagged the first 600 ay 300m, that was likely canting too.

However, a cant isn't always needed. The most successful Olympic prone shooters, Sergei Martynov, managed without. His position is highly unusual though, if very carefully considered: he has the buttplate adjusted to the left, pushing the rifle away from his face. A few other very successful International shooters drop their head onto the stock; Raymond Debevec, multiple 300m World Champion, 50m European Champion and World Championship and Olympic medallist comes to mind. Both Martynov and Debevec have a fairly wide position (really very wide in Martynov's case) which would see their shoulder, head, and left arm in greater alignment than a straighter position.

 

[Dave M.]

It's an indoor match, so ...

Do you mean intentionally canting for wind?
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Canting the rifle makes no difference if you are strictly using the center of the crosshairs. Zero.

 

[Tim Slater]

Canting the rifle makes no difference if you are strictly using the center of the crosshairs. Zero.

As the topic is canting at the Olympics, crosshairs aren't really applicable; telescopic sights aren't allowed. Your point that a slightly asymmetric surround to the sight picture not being an issue is valid though.

In relation to your earlier post that canting doesn't matter when holding off rather than clicking, I'm not sure that's applicable here. I know of Olympic shooters who hold off/shade for some wind changes, but absolutely will click to centre their group. Sighters are unlimited, with a dedicated sighting period, allowing time for tweaks to the cheekpiece. Particularly in finals, where every 0.1 point counts, you'd have to be brave to trust hold offs on every shot!

 

[Rocketvapor]

@Tim Slater
I shoot an AR in F-Class, ONLY at 600 for the time being.
I have a home made BiPod that I can cant if I want to but don't.
I do find I have to climb up on the stock to get into the eye box.
So, Wife and I are going for some trigger time, maybe Tuesday.
My thought will be try a little cant on the bipod, rotate the 30X scope (with it's own level) back to plumb and rotate the buffer tube to keep the stock level in the rear bag. Push the buffer retaining pin down, rotate the tube so it's out of the notch and lock it down. Something like 10 degrees looks like it might help.
Set zero @ 100, go out to 600 and record new dope (if the wind cooperates) and see if it is easier for this old neck to set a good position.

Any thoughts?

 

[Tim Slater]

@Rocketvapor I'm afraid I've never shot F-Class, nor an AR15. I really can't say jie canting a Bipod or AR internals would work.

That said if you're lying straight behind the rifle, then yes, you'd have to move your head to aim: the sightlibe will tend to be parallel to your line of sight. Are you able to lower the rifle, or create space for your head behind the sights?

You're probably much better asking F-Class shooters!

 

[Rocketvapor]

Rounded off measurements : Maybe some error?
Adding about an inch to the right leg of my home made 24" wide bipod, and dropping an inch on the left sets up a cant of a little less than 5 degrees.
With a bore to scope center of 2.6"and scope leveled plumb that would move my line of sight about 0.225" to the left with that much more cheek space. I would now be off about a 1/4 MOA @ 100 yds.
Using center dot with NO windage adjustment that would move line of sight 0.225" @ 100yds, 300yds, 600yds , also to the left, POI will be to the right. That's with NO dope compensation.
0.225" @ 600 yds is how many MOA? How many clicks?

 

[Rocketvapor]

Made it to the range today.
Shot @ 100yds.
ShotMarker wasn't set up and Bullet Cam wouldn't connect with phone so didn't go out to 600.

5 to 6 Degree cant. I like it. Reset scope for plumb.
POA was center 1/2" red dot. Walked scope down. Finished with scope set for 0.1mil right, reset zero.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Made it to the range today.
Shot @ 100yds.
ShotMarker wasn't set up and Bullet Cam wouldn't connect with phone so didn't go out to 600.

5 to 6 Degree cant. I like it. Reset scope for plumb.
POA was center 1/2" red dot. Walked scope down. Finished with scope set for 0.1mil right, reset zero.
View attachment 1579031

Back to range today (8/8/24)
600yds with 5 -6 degrees cant.
S2 is high in the 8 ring.

 

[Rocketvapor]

And, back to 600yds today (8/14/24). Final practice before match on Saturday.
3 shots then adj scope 0.1 mil left, 0.2 mil up, then a 5 shot group.

CRAP, Just noticed, ShotMarker was set up for MR-1 target

 

[dannyjbiggs]

It shouldn't be a surprise. Canting a rifle with sights off vertical have been used in competition forever. Are the multi position shooters supposed to rotate sights for every position? I think they choose to leave them as is and figure out (as mentioned above) how to turn the elevation and windage dials to get where they need to be. I'm pretty sure they know their zeros for each position. Tubb has a whole section in his book "the Rifle Shooter" that goes through how why he does it the way he does.

Back in the 60"s, I knew of one international smallbore US competitor that shot with a cant. He shot with a "front post sight" and had the post beveled so that the top would be in the horizontal when he was spot on repetitive cant.

 

[butchlambert]

I've never been beaten by an Olympic shooter. Just saying...

You haven't shot against one have you!

 

[butchlambert]

You haven't shot against one have you!

Thought so!

 

[Allen Corneau]

Silhouette shooter here so I'll speak from that perspective.

Shooting off-hand (or any positional shooting) is very much about getting the rifle to fit you as best as possible within the rules of the game, a.k.a ergonomics.

For many of us, that means canting the stock/rifle onto our chest so we can get better support hand positions, better cheek pressure, and get the rifle balanced over our support-hand wrist/arm bones thus putting the weight of the rifle into our hip.

Those of us that shoot air rifle, smallbore, and high power Silhouette use scopes, so the scope is leveled to match the horizon after we have the position of the rifle decided on. I have small degree of cant in most of my rifles except my Open air rifle, which has different ergonomics from the other rifles and ends up having nearly perfect alignment... But if it needed some cant I wouldn't hesitate to make it that way. Ergonomics rules the day.

My smallbore rifle probably has the most cant, so when I adjust the scope from chickens (40m) to pigs (60m) I add in one click right (1/4 MOA). When I go from pigs to turkeys (77m) I add one more click right. Moving to rams (100m) it's again, one more click right. Wrapping back around to chickens I take out those three clicks back to my windage zero. These adjustments are close enough for Silhouette and easy enough to remember during match conditions, but if I forget it won't be too detrimental to my score.

Hope that helps.

 

[LW Moore]

It's an indoor match, so ...

Do you mean intentionally canting for wind?
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Only the finials, top eight shooters get indoors