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Aerospike 300 BLK 146 Lulu adventure begins

I would like to see this thread last at least until I can get some
Bullets down range farther than 10 yards before I give up.
I will not respond to any of HappyHellfire posts as I really have no interest in hearing anything from him at this point. I am always however interested in new technologies and designs in this sport, so I am torn. I hate to see this arrogant SOB gather any useful information for free at this point since he stated earlier in this post that he is only using this forum to generate interest from bullet companies so he can sell the concept and move on to other things. At the same time, I do look forward to your findings.
Hopefully, you are being compensated for your efforts, and In any case I look forward to your results. I just hope that Mr. Arrogant obtains no benefit from it. (just me being shallow. I will try to work on that)
 
P
As far as the aerodynamics are concerned, the theory is proven and I will be presenting it at the next ballistics conference in May.

I'm trying to bridge the gap between a theory and a practical application of it. I don't think my bullets will be competition ready for a few years but you have to start somewhere.

My evil plan is to get y'all interested and talking about them. Then one of the big bullet companies starts to take them seriously. Then I can go back to focusing on development again.

But I have already gotten some great ideas from these "discussions" on how to potentially improve the design. I will most likely be working on this for the rest of my life.please provide
Please provide resume and list any patents you may hold, along with a link to your IP relative to any Aerospike design(s).
Thank you.
 
I will not respond to any of HappyHellfire posts as I really have no interest in hearing anything from him at this point. I am always however interested in new technologies and designs in this sport, so I am torn. I hate to see this arrogant SOB gather any useful information for free at this point since he stated earlier in this post that he is only using this forum to generate interest from bullet companies so he can sell the concept and move on to other things. At the same time, I do look forward to your findings.
Hopefully, you are being compensated for your efforts, and In any case I look forward to your results. I just hope that Mr. Arrogant obtains no benefit from it. (just me being shallow. I will try to work on that)
I understand that completely.

Here’s the thing, the reason I bought the bullets instead of looking for a gift is the freedom of absolutely no ties.

Flip side is not wanting to appear like I have some sort of grudge and talking down the product. It’s a fine line.

Within a few posts in his other threads I asked very specific questions and indicated I had more. Offered to take that conversation offline. Never got a response. All this could have been hashed out privately.

I’m no different than any other reasonably knowledgeable shooter, who has a pet cartridge. Give me the weight and dimensions of your bullet, I’ll give you load that will probably work pretty well. It might be rocket science at the core, but it’s also pretty common knowledge within a pretty large community.

It doesn’t need to be this hard to get good feed back, from a combined thousands of years experience. More so when those that hold all that experience, are generally willing to help a new guy. That’s the true shame here, bridges burned long before they were even crossed.

The reason I want to see this through, is after seeing the quality of the bullets delivered to me, combined with @HappyHellfire apparent complete lack of knowledge of loading, I think if he would get out of his own way, the bullets just might have a chance.

Then again I’m dumb enough to spend the time and money to put a solid +/- MOA 600 yard load together for the unlikely cartridge.

I look forward to folks chiming, whether or not that helps happyhellfire or not, it might help me gain some knowledge. Privately is fine. Bottom line that’s the only reason I’m doing this. Pretty selfish, right.

Keep it civil
 
I understand that completely.

Here’s the thing, the reason I bought the bullets instead of looking for a gift is the freedom of absolutely no ties.

Flip side is not wanting to appear like I have some sort of grudge and talking down the product. It’s a fine line.

Within a few posts in his other threads I asked very specific questions and indicated I had more. Offered to take that conversation offline. Never got a response. All this could have been hashed out privately.

I’m no different than any other reasonably knowledgeable shooter, who has a pet cartridge. Give me the weight and dimensions of your bullet, I’ll give you load that will probably work pretty well. It might be rocket science at the core, but it’s also pretty common knowledge within a pretty large community.

It doesn’t need to be this hard to get good feed back, from a combined thousands of years experience. More so when those that hold all that experience, are generally willing to help a new guy. That’s the true shame here, bridges burned long before they were even crossed.

The reason I want to see this through, is after seeing the quality of the bullets delivered to me, combined with @HappyHellfire apparent complete lack of knowledge of loading, I think if he would get out of his own way, the bullets just might have a chance.

Then again I’m dumb enough to spend the time and money to put a solid +/- MOA 600 yard load together for the unlikely cartridge.

I look forward to folks chiming, whether or not that helps happyhellfire or not, it might help me gain some knowledge. Privately is fine. Bottom line that’s the only reason I’m doing this. Pretty selfish, right.

Keep it civil
I think I have misunderstood what he was trying to accomplish with the bullets he's selling. I thought he was trying to produce a superior bullet for long range and the bullets he's selling were to be accurate for that. I now believe he's not particularly interested in accuracy at this stage of development only in proving the design for retained energy and speed. With that in mind many of us would not be able to test effectively for those results as we're mainly interested in accuracy. Once he has his aerodynamics confirmed he's going to try to sell the idea to a real bullet maker. I believe his real interest is just to prove his theory is correct.
 
Look at the pictures of my bullets on my website. The most critical people are doing honest reviews. Of course they are going to show the worst case images.

Judge the bullets on how they fly and and I will figure out how to make them pretty.
If bullets aren't uniform they don't "fly" uniform. If you can visibly see differences in profile and surface finish then they aren't uniform and as a result . . .. won't "fly" uniform.

If your looking to make bullets that are capable of producing accuracy at LR and / or ELR you need to be controlling physical tolerance in the rhelms of below. If not, then the best design in the world won't have a hope of achieving results in the real world. At the end of the day they need to go down a barrel which is a relatively consistent diameter shot to shot, how each bullet interfaces with that constraint determines potential accuracy.

Diameter +/- .0001 between bullets
Base to bearing surface +/- .001
Bearing surface length +/- .001
Over all length +/- .003
 
If bullets aren't uniform they don't "fly" uniform. If you can visibly see differences in profile and surface finish then they aren't uniform and as a result . . .. won't "fly" uniform.

If your looking to make bullets that are capable of producing accuracy at LR and / or ELR you need to be controlling physical tolerance in the rhelms of below. If not, then the best design in the world won't have a hope of achieving results in the real world. At the end of the day they need to go down a barrel which is a relatively consistent diameter shot to shot, how each bullet interfaces with that constraint determines potential accuracy.

Diameter +/- .0001 between bullets
Base to bearing surface +/- .001
Bearing surface length +/- .001
Over all length +/- .003
That is great feedback, thanks. Just to confirm, those are in units of inches?

As of right now with the low rate production I've managed to put together I'm 0.0002 inches for diameter and less than 0.0001 inches for lengths with the exception of the overall length. I have to remount to trim the nib off the back of the bullet and that leaves a bit of variability.

When I eventually shift to a swiss lathe that nib will no longer be an issue and that dimension will also be very tight.

What about weight variability? How many grains? +/- 0.1?

I am thinking about using some grant money and training an AI to do automated inspections of the lengths and find the type of surface defects that occasionally pass my eyes. I might have some students build it for me as a class project. That would be fun for them.
 
Who knows what the kind of thinking is, getting a straight answer is tough :eek:
That’s where the friction starts.

On a good note I pulled out probably one of the bullets in the bunch. No big lumps or grooves. Minimal spike on the base.
Here’s the hole.IMG_6689.jpegIMG_6691.jpeg

Pretty good example of why tight machining tolerances are needed, when you look back at the oblong hole posted earlier. Difference between a baffle strike and not.

@HappyHellfire has put up with a lot, hopefully he also has a sense of humor. It was really hard not to bring this up yesterday when he was touring his superior ballistic knowledge that involves a lot of math. Apparently he can send a rocket to the moon. I just wish he could get 50 bullets in a box.:oops:

Between the culls 7, and a box two bullets short, I’ve lost 15% of the product. At least I can use the culls to establish velocity.

One last thing that I touched on earlier, but wonder what others think, I’m not a fan of bullets that leave the neck, before they hit the lands, just seems like a good way to get gas flowing past the bullet.

As you can see below. This bullet is about .080” out of the case when the bullet engages. Bad enough that the jump would make Weatherby proud, the bullet free floats. Not something have ever been a fan of, just never seems to get the best results.

IMG_6692.jpeg

The question of pressure bands has come up, I don’t think this bullet will need them, and may push the center of gravity too far forward. The bearing surface is only about .180” long now, how much would you want to remove?

More to come, questions and answers certainly welcome.
 
Who knows what the kind of thinking is, getting a straight answer is tough :eek:
That’s where the friction starts.

On a good note I pulled out probably one of the bullets in the bunch. No big lumps or grooves. Minimal spike on the base.
Here’s the hole.View attachment 1574959View attachment 1574960

Pretty good example of why tight machining tolerances are needed, when you look back at the oblong hole posted earlier. Difference between a baffle strike and not.

@HappyHellfire has put up with a lot, hopefully he also has a sense of humor. It was really hard not to bring this up yesterday when he was touring his superior ballistic knowledge that involves a lot of math. Apparently he can send a rocket to the moon. I just wish he could get 50 bullets in a box.:oops:

Between the culls 7, and a box two bullets short, I’ve lost 15% of the product. At least I can use the culls to establish velocity.

One last thing that I touched on earlier, but wonder what others think, I’m not a fan of bullets that leave the neck, before they hit the lands, just seems like a good way to get gas flowing past the bullet.

As you can see below. This bullet is about .080” out of the case when the bullet engages. Bad enough that the jump would make Weatherby proud, the bullet free floats. Not something have ever been a fan of, just never seems to get the best results.

View attachment 1574973

The question of pressure bands has come up, I don’t think this bullet will need them, and may push the center of gravity too far forward. The bearing surface is only about .180” long now, how much would you want to remove?

More to come, questions and answers certainly welcome.
With the quality of your work, I'll keep sending you boxes just to keep it up.

Just to confirm, you want the bearing surface to still be in the case when the ogive engages the rifling? That's a new one to me but it sounds reasonable. If I extend the bearing surface I have to either cut back on the ogive or the spike to keep the amount of stability I have.

Can you get me a list of the types of defects caused the "culls"? I saw the one picture of the bad ogive and the one with the nib not trimmed off close. Any other types of defects?

You said that a box was missing two bullets? I have no idea how that happened. We use a standard 50 slot reloading tray to trim the nib. They are measured and put in the box from there. Maybe I should weigh the box to double check? I'll have to think on that one.
 
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I double checked my notes on the COAL and the max I found the SAAMI max COAL was 2.26 inches and I set my max as 2.25 inches but my die was set to 2.24 inches for my testing.
1000000764.jpg
Ignore the brass bullet. I was playing with materials for the design.
 
Just to confirm, you want the bearing surface to still be in the case when the ogive engages the rifling? That's a new one to me but it sounds reasonable. If I extend the bearing surface I have to either cut back on the ogive or the spike to keep the amount of stability I have.
I honestly can’t answer that question. What I think I prefer and why, may not hold up to scrutiny.

The problem with the 300 Blackout chamber is that it’s not what you would call a match chamber. It was designed to pitch to the military with a 2 MOA requirement out to I think 500 yards. The cartridge flops around in the chamber like a fish out of water, so you can pour in a pound of sand and still feed.

More to the point, and this is the stuff long arguments come from, is what exactly is the firing process once the primer is ignited.

Does the primer pressure force the bulllet into the lands, before the powder ignites annd expands the neck, is the question. Part of the answer will be how far does the bullet have to travel. So there is no absolute answer. If powder or gas blown past the bullet, is not desirable.

One thing that is not disputable is the angle of entry to the bore is critical. Your bullet travels .060-.080” from case mouth to lands un supported. Seems to me that would be a potential for a sideways entry. I would say in my experience, those bullets that float never seem to be the most precise. Others that have it figured out might have a different experience, then again, they might have a chamber with tolerances that allow that.

Here, feed back from others would be appreciated.

What I can show you is bullets that were designed for the cartridge, and the bullet the cartridge was basically designed around. Also included was the G9 bullet that held MOA groups out past 500 yards.

This is one of the best uses of a chamber gauge cut with an actual reamer with length being Max SAAMI. If the bullet pokes out the end, it’s too long for a standard magazine. Better to find out this way if a bullet can be loaded to max. One surprise bullet is the 110 VMax can be jammed with about .020” left in the case. Great visuals.

The chamber was designed so that a 240 or 220 SMK would be .010” off the lands at 2.260”. Here’s a 240

IMG_6693.jpeg

Sierra also made the first bullet specifically for the cartridge, the 125 SMK.

IMG_6694.jpeg

One of the most popular the 110 Barnes Black tip.

IMG_6696.jpeg

The G9 154 Grain bullet. No longer produced.

IMG_6697.jpeg

Note that the G9 will probably have less surface contact, but at least two bands will
Always be in the neck.

And just for fun the 250 ATip touching the lands and magazine length.
IMG_6698.jpeg

IMG_6699.jpeg

Early cartridge target shooters used a method called breech seating. The bullet was seated fully into the chamber, often with a mechanical tool that incorporates a fired in that chamber case. The bullet was seated so that about half the base was engraved into the rifling. Rule of thumb about .060” ahead of the charged cartridge case. Kind hard of to argue neck tension with that method, and may be closer to your artillery experiences.

Do the math on your bullet at 2.240. Only need the case length. If it’s like most brass around 1.360”.

I had varyimg lengths on your bullet due to the Spike. So this will be off some.

Case length + bullet length - overall length = seated depth.
Seated depth - boat tail = bearing surface in the neck.

1.360 + 1.300 - 2.240= .420
.420-.400= .020” in the case.

Hand fed single shot you can get away with that. Rounds bouncing around in a magazine due to recoil are probably going to end up seated crooked.
 
So it looks like the contour of the barrel will pay a significant part in the amount of jump for a given bullet seating depth. If the contour is cut for a five caliber tangent ogive but a seven caliber secant ogive is used the amount of jump will increase. Do custom barrels get machined for the specific bullet ogive used for competitions?

What is the minimum amount of bearing length that needs to be seated in the case? I looked a good bit to find the minimum length of the bearing surface and I couldn't find it in any books, papers, or BRL reports. Intuition would say the longer the bearing surface the less the bullet jump from the barrel but I have learned not to trust my intuition with these things. I have used down to 0.5 calibers bearing surface and with my testing (which is not focused on accuracy) I haven't seen any difference.
 
So it looks like the contour of the barrel will pay a significant part in the amount of jump for a given bullet seating depth. If the contour is cut for a five caliber tangent ogive but a seven caliber secant ogive is used the amount of jump will increase. Do custom barrels get machined for the specific bullet ogive used for competitions? This all depends. But first a small correction. Barrel contour (outside shape) really has no effect on internal ballistics. Chamber dimensions (where the cartridge goes) on the other hand, mean everything. Now, you can design a bullet to be optimal in a chamber that already exists. You can design a chamber to be optimal for a new bullet or case design. Welcome to wildcatting.

What is the minimum amount of bearing length that needs to be seated in the case? I looked a good bit to find the minimum length of the bearing surface and I couldn't find it in any books, papers, or BRL reports. Intuition would say the longer the bearing surface the less the bullet jump from the barrel but I have learned not to trust my intuition with these things. I have used down to 0.5 calibers bearing surface and with my testing (which is not focused on accuracy) I haven't seen any difference. Depends on your purpose. There is a cartridge called Wolfpup, that I’ll link to below that cuts across the grain of most thinking. That cartridge use is loaded into the chamber on the bench one at a time.
I would expect anything labeled specifically for 300 Blackout to be able to feed through a belt fed M-16 at a rate of 900 rounds per minute.
I think we just reached a critical point in your bullet design. You just emptied your tea cup. More on that later, but some here will know exactly the meaning of that remark.

Below are some different bullets that might help clear up the bullet shape question. 250 ATip again, a Hornady 220 round nose, the red one is a 265 grain cast bore rider. Note the step up in diameter just ahead of the case neck. It’s basically a two diameter bullet, .300/.308.

IMG_1427.jpeg

IMG_1429.jpeg

IMG_1428.jpeg

IMG_1432.jpeg

IMG_1431.jpeg

When the ATip is loaded to SAAMI max. The ogive is below the case neck, to shoot that from a standard magazine, I trim the necks to about .020” shorter than minimum. Keeps the neck from catching on a feed ramp.

All the other bullets are shown at touch.
Long way to say that nose profile determines when the contact happens.


There was a very high ranking martial arts student who gained access to the master of his discipline and was invited to study. At what we might consider the entrance interview the master stopped the conversation and offered the student a cup of tea. The student was very eager to start the training and show the master what he knew, but reluctantly sat as the teacher prepared the tea.
When the tea was ready, the master set a cup in front of the student and began pouring the tea, continuing to pour until the cup ran over. It took the student a few seconds before saying something, and a few more before he finally covered the cup with his hands and demanded the teacher stop pouring the tea and questioning if the old master had lost his mind.
The master replied, I can not teach you, your mind is like the tea cup, so full of your own ideas that it is over flowing. There is no room left for what I have to offer, and sent the student away.

On a scale of 1-10 on this forum, my knowledge probably barely makes a 5, pretty average. There have been a lot of 1&2’s that have left the room. Unable to offer any advice because your cup runs over.

This might give a better understanding of your reception here. Not excusing all of it, but to those in the know, the holes in your knowledge of bullet design and needs was pretty obvious. Hopefully this gets you on a better road.
 
With the quality of your work, I'll keep sending you boxes just to keep it up.

Just to confirm, you want the bearing surface to still be in the case when the ogive engages the rifling? That's a new one to me but it sounds reasonable. If I extend the bearing surface I have to either cut back on the ogive or the spike to keep the amount of stability I have.

Can you get me a list of the types of defects caused the "culls"? I saw the one picture of the bad ogive and the one with the nib not trimmed off close. Any other types of defects?
This is not a land mark from setting up a dummy round, this is in fact straight outta the box, I received this picture from a well known and respected shooter who's testing the 6.5's.
All I know is if my work that I pride myself in looked like this representation of your work that your so proud of I'd be out of a job and on welfare.IMG959064(1).jpgThis bullet should have been recycled not packaged and shipped.
Please don't try to excuse or explain away the obvious flaws as this is YOUR life's work not mine.
 
Dellet,

It’s always a pleasure to watch you at work. I think I learn more by just watching your approach to things, there’s a lot to absorb from your input here, I’ll probably go back and read your input/posts again, it can be applied elsewhere.

Also, my compliments on how you’re handling this thread, purpose driven, most guys would have bailed long ago. I think I would have anyways. Kudos!

The 300 blackout is a hoot, I’ve built three but it can also drive you crazy at times, especially when shooting Subsonic, at least for me. I’ve found answers to many of my questions in several of your threads, much appreciated!

Sean
 
Are those all the way around, or are they plier marks?
Most likely they are chuck marks. He’s having trouble cleanly parting the finished bullet. So probably chili king them up and turning the base. Makes you wonder how concentric the base to bearing surface to tip is.

IMG_6667.jpeg
This is what the base on all mine look like. If you look at the outer edge of the base, there is a bright circle. So the tail flares, then the base has a slight cup, then the spike in the center.
 

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