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Benefits of a tuner

More positive compensation! No targets to share, but very boring to shoot at 1500 yards! The Libert 375 shoots pretty dang good. Tacom structured barrels (very rigid), basically no harmonics to deal with. Sheds heat like crazy! Maybe doesn't fit this thread, but it is a fact that no tuner is needed!
 

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Positive compensation baby, .750 tall 23 es at 1k. Just a recent example of many hundreds like it. :)
I'll add, of all the really small ones at 1k I have seen that have the data with them. The majority shot smaller than the es would allow. You cant shoot that small with out pc baby lol.


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Ok since PC has entered the thread I will pose this question. Are we using PC to compensate for higher ES? That is, does PC become less relevant as ES numbers get smaller.
 
Ok since PC has entered the thread I will pose this question. Are we using PC to compensate for higher ES? That is, does PC become less relevant as ES numbers get smaller.
The thing is theres a lot of groups in the same targets with really small es. So the gun and guy loading are capable but for some reason the smallest groups do not typicaly line up with the ones with the smallest es. Not sure why, but its well know among the guys that shoot a lot of small groups at 1k testing. Once your under 20 it seems theres no correlation to es and vertcal.
 
The thing is theres a lot of groups in the same targets with really small es. So the gun and guy loading are capable but for some reason the smallest groups do not typicaly line up with the ones with the smallest es. Not sure why, but its well know among the guys that shoot a lot of small groups at 1k testing. Once your under 20 it seems theres no correlation to es and vertcal.
Absolutely Alex, Even at 100 yards many times I've been testing and find the smallest groups would have the largest E S numbers and the more open groups would have the smallest E S numbers.
 
Interesting thread, I don’t shoot competition and have never seen the need for me to have a tuner but I get why guys would, it’s a good way to deal with harmonics. I’d be interested to see top ten shooter lists in different disciplines and see who’s using one and who isn't at the top.
 
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Positive compensation baby, .750 tall 23 es at 1k. Just a recent example of many hundreds like it. :)
I'll add, of all the really small ones at 1k I have seen that have the data with them. The majority shot smaller than the es would allow. You cant shoot that small with out pc baby lol.


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It would be interesting to take that gun and set up a powder thrower ( Harrels, Jones ) to dump around 36.9 and see how it would go for a few targets. I have played with PC at 1K and had good results as well. Not THAT good.....But working.

Regards
Rick
 
The thing is theres a lot of groups in the same targets with really small es. So the gun and guy loading are capable but for some reason the smallest groups do not typicaly line up with the ones with the smallest es. Not sure why, but its well know among the guys that shoot a lot of small groups at 1k testing. Once your under 20 it seems theres no correlation to es and vertcal.

My confirmation bias agrees with this :D
 
The thing is theres a lot of groups in the same targets with really small es. So the gun and guy loading are capable but for some reason the smallest groups do not typicaly line up with the ones with the smallest es. Not sure why, but its well know among the guys that shoot a lot of small groups at 1k testing. Once your under 20 it seems theres no correlation to es and vertcal.
Alex, I think your observation is a unique one and one I've never experienced in this way. I like you pointing out...gun and guy loading being capable, and I certainly don't doubt that coming from you. First off, is this something new and you have just come upon or have you been seeing it awhile? Also, is it with the same powder, or do you see it with other powders?? You mention others seeing this anomaly, so probably not powder.
 
Alex, I think your observation is a unique one and one I've never experienced in this way. I like you pointing out...gun and guy loading being capable, and I certainly don't doubt that coming from you. First off, is this something new and you have just come upon or have you been seeing it awhile? Also, is it with the same powder, or do you see it with other powders?? You mention others seeing this anomaly, so probably not powder.
I wouldnt say its a unique observation among guys that do a lot of testing at 1k. Seen it hundreds of time over the last 15 years. Its not the exception, its the rule.
 
Based upon OP and observations being the rule, it will be interesting to see if you get any answers from this thread!
I used to talk about PC a lot more. I stopped trying to convince anyone for two reasons, first it doesnt matter and second if your not out there shooting a lot of groups at 1k to see it with your own eyes you wont believe it. As to the OP, most of the guys I have talked to with some interesting ideas are sr group guys. Not many of them on this site and if they are they dont post. But its still been an interesting thread.
 

LRPV, what the problem ?​

Nothing whatsoever. I just got a kick out of the pie plates. I just envisioned some old deer hunter with his trusty 30-30 trying a tuner and claiming it doesn't do anything.

I wanted to make a big detailed write up of my tuner experiences but I can't seem to find the time. I have used a tuner/tuner brake since I started shooting 600/1000yd BR. I work up a load, with the tuner installed, make it shoot as good as I can by tweaking powder/seating depth. Now, I tune a little different than some do as I want to find the middle of what shoots good and that may not be the very best groups that the rifle is capable of but it's also not on the razors edge and about to fall out of bed with the slightest change. This is what has worked for me as I preload at home and travel without any ammo tuning option other than seating depth. Then I shoot 2 shot groups changing the tuner and paying attention to POI more than anything else really and choose my tuner setting that way. For me, I find it best to do all of the load work up/tuning at or as close to the intended shooting distance that you can. Not everyone has that luxury but I tune at 500 and 930yd as that's what I have to shoot safely. I haven't ever tweaked my tuners during a match, I would've liked to a couple times but I have never taken the time to learn which way I need to go, so I fall in that camp of never touching them after they are set. I feel like they do give a broader tune window when picking a setting from looking for similar POI.

I am also of the belief that all of this "tuning" can be accomplished by load development without the use of the tuner IF a person takes the time to do so and learn what changes do what. It just goes back to more than one way to skin a cat.

Lastly, personal tuner experience where it was negative... I was getting ready to shoot the covid nationals and my rifle was shooting great at 930yds, consistent low 3" groups with very little vertical. I was at the point where I was done and ready to tweak my tuner setting but that day the wind was up and mirage was bad. I have two firing lines, one for 930yd and another for 500yd. The 500 was protected from the wind and so I went over there and decided to shoot my tuner test at 330yd as I had just built that target frame and hadn't used it yet. The 930yd load didn't shoot very well at 330 but after a few turns of the tuner rings it came into its own and I'm feeling pretty good. Next day I go back to 930yd and the rifle is shooting 12" of vertical and it's all over the place. I thought about it a little and put the tuner back to where I had it when shooting that distance and it went right back to shooting 3" groups with no vertical. THIS is why for ME I want to develop and tune at the intended distance or at least as close as I can get. Now, in the end, that rifle and I put in the worst performance I have ever shot and I think I shot the barrel out testing before the match.

As to the large ES numbers shooting better at distance than the lower ES, It's not that we intentionally try to add ES to a load to get it to shoot better. It's that we shoot multiple groups/ladders at distance and pay attention to what the paper shows us and that means more often than not, we have to ignore the chronograph. PC is real.
 
Nothing whatsoever. I just got a kick out of the pie plates. I just envisioned some old deer hunter with his trusty 30-30 trying a tuner and claiming it doesn't do anything.

I wanted to make a big detailed write up of my tuner experiences but I can't seem to find the time. I have used a tuner/tuner brake since I started shooting 600/1000yd BR. I work up a load, with the tuner installed, make it shoot as good as I can by tweaking powder/seating depth. Now, I tune a little different than some do as I want to find the middle of what shoots good and that may not be the very best groups that the rifle is capable of but it's also not on the razors edge and about to fall out of bed with the slightest change. This is what has worked for me as I preload at home and travel without any ammo tuning option other than seating depth. Then I shoot 2 shot groups changing the tuner and paying attention to POI more than anything else really and choose my tuner setting that way. For me, I find it best to do all of the load work up/tuning at or as close to the intended shooting distance that you can. Not everyone has that luxury but I tune at 500 and 930yd as that's what I have to shoot safely. I haven't ever tweaked my tuners during a match, I would've liked to a couple times but I have never taken the time to learn which way I need to go, so I fall in that camp of never touching them after they are set. I feel like they do give a broader tune window when picking a setting from looking for similar POI.

I am also of the belief that all of this "tuning" can be accomplished by load development without the use of the tuner IF a person takes the time to do so and learn what changes do what. It just goes back to more than one way to skin a cat.

Lastly, personal tuner experience where it was negative... I was getting ready to shoot the covid nationals and my rifle was shooting great at 930yds, consistent low 3" groups with very little vertical. I was at the point where I was done and ready to tweak my tuner setting but that day the wind was up and mirage was bad. I have two firing lines, one for 930yd and another for 500yd. The 500 was protected from the wind and so I went over there and decided to shoot my tuner test at 330yd as I had just built that target frame and hadn't used it yet. The 930yd load didn't shoot very well at 330 but after a few turns of the tuner rings it came into its own and I'm feeling pretty good. Next day I go back to 930yd and the rifle is shooting 12" of vertical and it's all over the place. I thought about it a little and put the tuner back to where I had it when shooting that distance and it went right back to shooting 3" groups with no vertical. THIS is why for ME I want to develop and tune at the intended distance or at least as close as I can get. Now, in the end, that rifle and I put in the worst performance I have ever shot and I think I shot the barrel out testing before the match.

As to the large ES numbers shooting better at distance than the lower ES, It's not that we intentionally try to add ES to a load to get it to shoot better. It's that we shoot multiple groups/ladders at distance and pay attention to what the paper shows us and that means more often than not, we have to ignore the chronograph. PC is real.
Good stuff Jason!
CW
 
I used to talk about PC a lot more. I stopped trying to convince anyone for two reasons, first it doesnt matter and second if your not out there shooting a lot of groups at 1k to see it with your own eyes you wont believe it. As to the OP, most of the guys I have talked to with some interesting ideas are sr group guys. Not many of them on this site and if they are they dont post. But its still been an interesting thread.
[/QUOT
Alex I usually develop loads at 200yd and always observe charge weight related positive compensation.
 
As to the OP, most of the guys I have talked to with some interesting ideas are sr group guys. Not many of them on this site and if they are they dont post.
Alex, the way I did my tuner stuff last season was to tune the gun w/o it on for a base line. Then I put the tuner on to the shoulder, backed it away from the shoulder until the '0' mark was at the top and ran my test with 3 shot groups and backing the tuner out 1 number for each group. When my 'base line' groups (no tuner) showed up, I knew it was in tune. It would hang in there for 3 numbers until it started going away. Rinse and repeat from there as it would come back and go away as the tuner advaced toward the muzzle.

Later in the season, I had a gut feeling that the 'tune' seemed to get wider (more numbers before it fell off) as the tuner got further out. So I ran it way out and tested it. My hunch was wrong.

Trying to tune a gun up with a tuner on it right from the start seems a little odd.
 
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From what I’m understanding from this thread is that Tuners are not necessarily a a tool that is used to improve groups/ performance, but are helpful in maintaining that degree of performance when varying conditions and situations present themselves.
They are a quick and easy “ On Site “ tool that allows manipulation of the existing proven good ammo / Rifle combo if it for some reason falls out of “ Tune “ .

I’ve always wondered if their benefits are Range specific , the disciplines that seem to favour them are “ known distance “ .

So is there a cross over somehow with positive compensation and tuners at known distance ?

That is a serious question, because I’m in an area I know nothing about .
 

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