Murray Brook
Silver $$ Contributor
Francis Scott Key Bridge, Baltimore Md.
- Thread starter PopCharlie
- Start date
No one can be 100% sure.
But the little video evidence and the VDR reports that came out all points to a loss of power at a critical point. There might have been some actions that could have saved the bridge, but we will only learn about it afterwards.
What I do know is that this episode is going to give me a lot more paperwork.
I have been watching all the speculation and thought I'd chime in. I am not a ship pilot but I am what we on inland waters call a heavy tow pilot. I run 30 loads from St.Louis down to New Orleans. Works out to be 60,000 tons total. So I have a clue.
First most ships are single screw as that is the most efficient propulsion. Most of their trip is straight line. My boats twin screw best for handling, very little straight down the Mississippi River.
Second is swapping a generator on a boat is a big deal. We never do that underway if possible. When you swap generators under emergency condition, you just stopped and hard started every motor and compressor on the boat. Believe me something new finds a way to trip out more than you would think.
Third is I haven't read for sure the main engine ever failed. It takes longer than you think to shift and throttle the engine. Plus on my boat that is electrical also. Don't know about the ship.
Fourth I can imagine me in the pilot house driving that ship. The harbor pilot is giving instructions to a steersman. Now the last order was a small starboard rudder correction. Now the power goes out. Maybe call for all stop on main. That might take 30 seconds or more. Time to get a slight starboard swing to ship. Next generator comes back on line so port rudder and full ahead is ordered. Then generator trips out for some reason. So it's possible the rudder correction never happened. About now I'd be saying well this doesn't look good. To close now to change the course. The big puff of black smoke is probably when they decided to back full on main. Dropping the anchor with much headway is mainly hope for a miracle. If it would stick would either drag or break the chain. If for no other reason then in court they will be asking you why you weren't backing and dropped the anchor before you hit the bridge.
This probably made the ship swing to starboard more and hit the pier more head on.
So whole lot of guessing here but I bet not far off. I can tell you on the water shit happens from human error and mechanical malfunction every day. Just most of it isn't seen.
Fifth is ironic I'm sitting here on a rare vacation trip with just 2 barges on tha Warrior river in Alabama
waiting on a R/R bridge that is broke down and can't raise. I didn't hit it.
Stephen
First most ships are single screw as that is the most efficient propulsion. Most of their trip is straight line. My boats twin screw best for handling, very little straight down the Mississippi River.
Second is swapping a generator on a boat is a big deal. We never do that underway if possible. When you swap generators under emergency condition, you just stopped and hard started every motor and compressor on the boat. Believe me something new finds a way to trip out more than you would think.
Third is I haven't read for sure the main engine ever failed. It takes longer than you think to shift and throttle the engine. Plus on my boat that is electrical also. Don't know about the ship.
Fourth I can imagine me in the pilot house driving that ship. The harbor pilot is giving instructions to a steersman. Now the last order was a small starboard rudder correction. Now the power goes out. Maybe call for all stop on main. That might take 30 seconds or more. Time to get a slight starboard swing to ship. Next generator comes back on line so port rudder and full ahead is ordered. Then generator trips out for some reason. So it's possible the rudder correction never happened. About now I'd be saying well this doesn't look good. To close now to change the course. The big puff of black smoke is probably when they decided to back full on main. Dropping the anchor with much headway is mainly hope for a miracle. If it would stick would either drag or break the chain. If for no other reason then in court they will be asking you why you weren't backing and dropped the anchor before you hit the bridge.
This probably made the ship swing to starboard more and hit the pier more head on.
So whole lot of guessing here but I bet not far off. I can tell you on the water shit happens from human error and mechanical malfunction every day. Just most of it isn't seen.
Fifth is ironic I'm sitting here on a rare vacation trip with just 2 barges on tha Warrior river in Alabama
waiting on a R/R bridge that is broke down and can't raise. I didn't hit it.
Stephen
Work done on the bow thruster or power system feeding it could create a scenario where a catastrophic electrical failure could happen. Backup kicks in, call for the bow thruster and same failure. I've seen it happen on smaller ships, and unless catastrophic, where it takes out the whole power system, it's not easy to see.
Tod Hendricks
Gold $$ Contributor
Spot on summation. I have spent a fair amount of time at sea as well, I would add as an educated guess, there was probably two generators running with the electrical distribution board split, each generator isolated to its side of the board. After the first power failure which just happened to include the hotel side of the board, the engineers engaged the tie breaker which combines the entire board to all power sources coming in. Just a guess, the issue that caused the first blackout may have also blacked out the second generator. They may have had to preemptively disengage some distribution breakers depending on the current draw from refer containers. I would guess that these breakers are very large and not manually operated, probably activated from the engineering control room. I would also guess the bow thruster is powered by an electric motor, no power from generators no work.
It had to be as an intense as it can get for the crew and pilot, I am sure they are second guessing their actions, Im not going to pre judge them. Also, I have never heard of two pilots being required, if there was two the second was probably on a ride along for tonnage or area experience.
HandgunHTR
Gold $$ Contributor
A lot of good info here.
A couple more things to add for those who don't know how these ships systems work:
- The primary engine doesn't provide any electrical power. It turns the screw(s). That is it.
- The generators feed an electrical system (bus) that then branches out to the various electrical systems on the ship. You will have a port bus and a starboard bus. Sometimes they are connected and being driven off of one generator, sometimes they are isolated and each are powered by their respective generator. If you remember from the description of the ship, there were two main generators (port and starboard) and two back-up generators (again, port and starboard). In this configuration, the weak spot is where that interconnect happens. When on shore power, that breaker is shut so that one feed can power the whole ship. If there was an issue with that breaker, then you would have issues with power, as reported. When underway, if that breaker fails or has a short, it doesn't matter what generator is running, it will cause issues. Additionally, generators have protections on them that prevent the generator breakers from closing if there is a fault in the line somewhere. Better to have no power than to have arcing which will lead to a fire.
- Many of the steering functions (rudder and bow thruster movement) are controlled by hydraulics, which requires a hydraulic motor to be running. There will usually be accumulators in the system that allows for pressure to be maintained for brief emergency movements, but again, they will be very limited.
urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
This whole thing is sketchy as fudge.
The second was a trainee
I just read the FBI is looking to come here and review the posts to aid them in their investigation.
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
Has your Vessel ever been on drydock in the Houston area. If so, there is a good chance my shop has worked on it.
Our main customers are Kirby, Blessey, Genisis, the majority of the Shipyards, and a host of Indepent Companies that do a lot of Fleeting and subcontract for Kirby.
The majority of the Vessels we work on are in the 1800 to 3600 HP range.
as for the discussion about this ship, I would like to see a straight on shot of the stern to see the angle of the rudder.
Coyotefurharvester
Silver $$ Contributor
Can the pilots deny request to leave port due to any mechanical issues, whether observed or reported to them? Are maintenance logs reviewed ( by pilots )before the ship leaves the dock, or was the ship leaving harbor and anchoring/holding offshore for repairs prior to trans Atlantic. Making room for next container ship transfers.
This one has never been out of Mississippi River. Marquette has a canal division so I would think you have seen one of their 2400's. I just do trip pilot work now so pretty much on a different boat every trip.
On a side note I met you at your shop maybe 1985. My dad had a boat and oil tow with a separate bow boat. Had a tunnel across it with 2 props. You made a shaft for it to convert to 1 prop. Old channel shipyard.
Attachments
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
1985. That’s been a while back. We were about a fourth as big as we are now.
I see quite a few Marquette vessels in the area. We do not do a lot of their work because they use Crumpler Machine, which is in Bridge City.
DShortt
Gold $$ Contributor
I do not envy the position those pilots are in. Everyone is ready to throw them to the wolves yet none of them know any facts apart from a video.
E
I had my license insured for 3 million for many years. At my age not worth it anymore.
Harbor pilots in the US each belong to certain organization for certain area. Most all will have the same coast guard documents. They are the top of the food chain in the pilot business. These organization are well funded and heavily insured. There are laws that limit their liability in that they don't own the ship. Nobody will go to jail. Except for gross negligence the coast guard can only go after their license.. I would guess when the harbor pilots name gets out he will probably retire or move or both. Just to big of a deal. If this would have happened 1 mile above or below the bridge it would have been 5 minutes on the news about trying to get the ship off from being aground
I had my license insured for 3 million for many years. At my age not worth it anymore.
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DShortt
Gold $$ Contributor
I doubt anything could prepare anyone for the experience they just had. I'd not wish that on anyone apart from those jumping to conclusions. Be careful demanding perfection. You might be subjected to the same one day.
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
Dean, I have to ask this question, because I am sure have piloted both.
Many vessels that have the power rating of the Kay A Eckstien are triple screw, not a twin screw.
Which do you prefer if both have the same HP rating?
We just finished the machine work on a new 130 footer for Golding that is triple screw, It has three Tier 3 3512 Cats. I think they are rating it at 4800.
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For the same power definitely twin screw. There are a few 10 and 12,000 towboat that are triple. These boats are 200 ×54.. Enough size the props aren't fighting each other for water. Plus on a triple screw you have 2 of the wheels turning the same rotation. Those 2 will fight for water flow.
Golding has a few triple screws. The are an oil barge company. Probably good sales pitch to an oil company for more redundancy. I hate to run a triple screw on just 2 engines. To my thinking you lose 10 % for each prop.
I have a question for those knowledgeable souls that I’ve wondered about but hadn’t got around to asking.
With a twin outboard setup one motor is counter rotation and on a twin engine ship I can assume a similar design but correct me of course.
Here’s my question .. with a third prop ~ which direction does it rotate with the vessel moving forward ?
With a twin outboard setup one motor is counter rotation and on a twin engine ship I can assume a similar design but correct me of course.
Here’s my question .. with a third prop ~ which direction does it rotate with the vessel moving forward ?
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