jds holler
Gold $$ Contributor
I'd never call Cher an economy model, but she's been good for a lot of mileage. 
jd
jd
Electric Cars -- anyone own one?
- Thread starter muleman69
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First, and most important, while 6.5 Creedmoor is a great long distance cartridge, it's not for me. I have a 6.5 Swedish Mauser, and that caliber is more interesting. My LR rifle is .308.
Second, I think the $7,500 tax credit helps some people buy an EV, and supports US industries and workers. Mostly, given the US built requirement for the subsidy, it helps US workers - and that is important. It is important that the US has a substantial share of the growing EV market. So we need to look at the tax credit as a means of supporting a segment of the industry and the jobs which that entails, not just whether some "liberal earth muffin" gets a cheaper car because of the tax credit.
The details of the 2024 tax credit are here: Tax Credit (with a link to more complex IRS FAQs).
The vehicle has to be substantually made in the US, and if the credit is taken up front - off the top of the vehicle price - it can be used even if the buyer owes no (or less than $7,500 in) taxes - as I read that article. Thus, the 2024 credit favors lower income buyers, and in fact, eligibility has an upper limit on income.
The fact that the credit favors the lower income (middle class) buyer has been lost in the misinformation of this thread. They get the car for $7,500 off the top of the vehicle price if they assign the credit to the dealer/maker, even if they do not owe that much in taxes. (I want our government policies to support the guy who goes to work with a lunch pail.)
Anyway, the question is whether the tax credit appropriately supports a) development of the American EV industry and b) American auto workers, competing in an international industry. I think the answer is probably "yes" for now.
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jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
The full coverage insurance on my EV is no more or less than any other $38,000 hatchback.
I would have to check on the Home Owners. I really don’t know.
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
From Steven Hayward (PowerLineBlog):
Remember how the left jeered when Sarah Palin, back during her star turn in 2008, led crowd chants of “Drill, baby, drill!” All the Certified Smart People like John Kerry and Al Gore said there was no way we could hope to end our dependence on foreign oil through domestic production, and President Obama was predicting that the U.S. would be off of oil by 2020 or so.
Funny we don’t hear that “we can’t drill out way out” mantra any more. This helps explain why the climate cultists, to whom Biden promised to “end fossil fuels,” are quietly out of their mind with rage at Biden right now.
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Remember how the left jeered when Sarah Palin, back during her star turn in 2008, led crowd chants of “Drill, baby, drill!” All the Certified Smart People like John Kerry and Al Gore said there was no way we could hope to end our dependence on foreign oil through domestic production, and President Obama was predicting that the U.S. would be off of oil by 2020 or so.
Funny we don’t hear that “we can’t drill out way out” mantra any more. This helps explain why the climate cultists, to whom Biden promised to “end fossil fuels,” are quietly out of their mind with rage at Biden right now.
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Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
Lower income folks are not "middle class" by inspection as well as by definition. Middle class are "middle income". This is Investopedia (emphasis added):
Income data released by the U.S. Census Bureau shows that the 2021 median household income was the highest on record at just around $65,000. Pew defines the middle class as those earning from two-thirds to double the median household income. This Pew classification means that the category of middle income is made up of people making somewhere between $43,350 and $130,000.
But let me ask this: How many people do you know of who struggle to make ends meet and pay their bills own an EV?
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jds holler
Gold $$ Contributor
Median income is somewhat subjective, based on location. I'd hate to take my median income that serves us quite well in "Sage Flats", Oregon, and move to Aspen, Colorado and try to survive.
A house that sells for $300,000 here in Sage Flats, would cost $450,000 just a hundred miles in three different directions. The other direction it would go for $200,000.
jd
A house that sells for $300,000 here in Sage Flats, would cost $450,000 just a hundred miles in three different directions. The other direction it would go for $200,000.
jd
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
Agree! But if we are going to analyse and compare anything at all we need to drive a stake somewhere. Besides, by far most EVs are being sold in higher-density metro areas, where median incomes are relatively high. But that serves my point as well. And the data will probably show that relatively few on the low end of those metro's income range are buying EVs. My point was to dispute the claim that EV subsidies favor "low-income" people. I would think that fails an initial sniff test.Median income is somewhat subjective, based on location. I'd hate to take my median income that serves us quite well in "Sage Flats", Oregon, and move to Aspen, Colorado and try to survive.
A house that sells for $300,000 here in Sage Flats, would cost $450,000 just a hundred miles in three different directions. The other direction it would go for $200,000.
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jds holler
Gold $$ Contributor
And I'll agree with you on that.
I just spent 500 bucks on a relatively minor repair bill on this jeep which is over 25 years old. Seems crazy when you consider that it's probably worth $1500 on a good day.
I doubt there is ANY kind of repair you could make on an EV for 500 bucks except perhaps change the windshield wipers.
The Jeep, even at it's advanced years and miles will probably be a serious part of my fleet for another five years or so. Sometime during that period, I will find another replacement for it in the price range of ten grand or less. That is what my "median income" can endure, and I'm not much different than most folks my age.
The folks whose median income allows the cost of an EV are fortunate, but make no mistake, they will forever be spending a larger percentage of that income on their transportation than most of us have in the past. I guess there is nothing right or wrong about that -- it just IS. jd
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
Better think again, many of those era Jeeps are worth a lot more than that, especially if not trashed of course.
No Reserve: 2001 Jeep Cherokee Limited 4x4
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TRSR8
Silver $$ Contributor
Interesting.
It’s also a government selection of winners and losers, largely driving a multi billion dollar operational loss for OEM ‘s driven by Brandon, in spite of the fact that, infrastructure in not there, technology is not there( range), and the market is not there, i.e. buying public is still quite resistant at current price points, far an away preferring hybrids( Toyota hybrid sales last quarter up 60%).
Bottom line, F & GM dramatically curtailing EV spend at present.
Several months back Deloitte did a major industry review and concluded the US buyer will reject the proposition at current price points.
P.S. Anybody interested should study up, for instance, of the Synthetic fuel project currently running as a joint venture between Exxon & Porsche with a major plant in South America. Base element, H2O….that’s right, water, resulting in 90 octane gasoline requiring zero alterations to IC engines. PORSCHE ran their factory 911 RSR race series on it, under consideration for 2025 Formula 1 mandated fuel.
Over 90% as green as EV’s, ICE not dead yet folks.
Germany, among others now stated they will not adhere to EU mandates without a carve out for synthetic fuels.
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Some cool stuff being developed, produced and sold in China. This thing can wade in 1.4m of water!
carnewschina.com
BYD's YangWang U8 launched, can float on water for 30 minutes and sail 3km/h
U8 is a giant SUV with a gross weight of nearly 4 tons, a length of 5.3 meters, and 1,200 horsepower.
carnewschina.com
TRSR8
Silver $$ Contributor
Great, right until you tell your buddies you’re driving the new Yang Wang.Some cool stuff being developed, produced and sold in China. This thing can wade in 1.4m of water!
BYD's YangWang U8 launched, can float on water for 30 minutes and sail 3km/h
U8 is a giant SUV with a gross weight of nearly 4 tons, a length of 5.3 meters, and 1,200 horsepower.
Who gives a toss? Right now I own a car which is ostensibly a UK brand but is owned by an Indian conglomerate. It costs more than the car above but has only half the horsepower. If US and European manufacturers don't keep pace consumers will buy the better product.
That vehicle is perfect for a Miami thunderstorm. And those EV batteries don't seem to mind the water.
That vehicle is perfect for a Miami thunderstorm. And those EV batteries don't seem to mind the water.
TRSR8
Silver $$ Contributor
wedgy
Gold $$ Contributor
It either floats or it is sinking slowly, like Dominoe's.... 30 minutes or less, and I wouldn't want to be around that battery when it gets wet.Some cool stuff being developed, produced and sold in China. This thing can wade in 1.4m of water!
BYD's YangWang U8 launched, can float on water for 30 minutes and sail 3km/h
U8 is a giant SUV with a gross weight of nearly 4 tons, a length of 5.3 meters, and 1,200 horsepower.
It is manoeuvrable in the water. It’s not just dead weight slowly sinking. In any event, my point is that there’s “some cool stuff being developed, produced and sold in China.” Never said it would be sold in the USA. But I did say that U.S. (and European) manufacturers had to keep innovating to compete. The Chinese EV’s hitting Europe make Teslas look like entry level models.
Brians356
Gold $$ Contributor
I'm so glad you brought up Porsche's "green" fuel. The stuff they doled out at some races last year cost about $45 per gallon to produce. I pieced together the following narrative from a 2023 story in Industry Decarbonization Newsletter:
As you may know, the South American plant is in Chile, the Hanu Oni project, operated by a company called HIF Global, and subsidized by the German government, Siemens-Energy, Porsche, and other companies.
The idea of e-fuels is to use renewable electricity to synthesize chemicals that can be used as fuels. Ideally, burning them causes only as much carbon dioxide as what has been used in their production. E-fuels are controversial, as producing them is very inefficient. However, a vocal group of people, particularly in Germany, believes that e-fuels will play a significant role as a future fuel for cars.
A single wind turbine currently powers the plant, on the barren coast of Chile simply because it's one of the most consistently windy places on Earth. The electricity is used to run electrolyzers that split water into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen is then used together with carbon dioxide to synthesize methanol.
Until recently, HIF and its project partners had communicated that the plant would use carbon dioxide directly from the air! But the direct air capture facility for the Haru Oni plant has yet to be built. For the Haru Oni demonstration plant, the carbon dioxide comes from a biogenic source (fermentation process of a brewery). This is a temporary CO₂ source while they wait for the direct air capture technology to be ready. After some media reports highlighted the lack of a direct air capture facility, HIF and its partners have removed corresponding claims from their web site.
Haru Oni is a small demonstration plant producing methanol from green hydrogen and biogenic carbon dioxide. A small fraction of that methanol is turned into gasoline. The technology works, but it is small scale. The output of the demonstration plant will be only 130,000 liters of synthetic gasoline, less than one gas station's worth. HIF has plans to expand production. In two steps, capacity is planned to be increased to 55 million liters e-gasoline per year by 2025 and over 550 million liters per year by 2027. To put this in perspective, while only a small demonstration plant is running right now, HIF had announced increasing production 400-fold in the next two years and 4,000-fold two years later.
These are bold plans. However, this is unlikely to happen, as the construction of these much larger production facilities has not even started. Plans are to build a larger production plant in the Cabo Negro industrial area. There already exists a fossil-fuel-based methanol plant by the company Methanex in Cabu Negro. HIF announced in October last year that the company withdrew the environmental permit application for the wind park that was supposed to power the facility in Cabo Negro.
Hype and E-Fuels: The Haru Oni pilot plant
Making fuel just from wind, water, and air – that's the promise of the Haru Oni project in Chile. But claims by the companies operating the plant contain a lot of hype.
NorCalMikie
Gold $$ Contributor
High mileage!!I'd never call Cher an economy model, but she's been good for a lot of mileage.
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