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A very sad day in Maine and the country..Active shooter

ACLU lawsuits against mental health institutions because of cruel conditions and treatment of individuals that were not committed by courts. Really limited law enforcement actions, to the point where it is only possible to react(law enforcement) to actions that have occurred. We will probably never hear truthfully WHY, just what the rifle did. Military has records on this guy's mental state.
 
@gunsandgunsmithing
I agree with the mental health issue but what puzzles me is people and guns have been around for a long while. Why all of this in the last 20 y
@gunsandgunsmithing
I agree with the mental health issue but what puzzles me is people and guns have been around for a long while. Why all of this in the last 20 yrs. With what our fathers and the VN vets went through you would think that they would be candidates for this but not so. Maybe because in school they taught strict morals that lasted. JMO
That’s just a start on why we have this problem now. Listing the real reason will get this thread closed.
 
@Ned Ludd for the win on your first paragraph! Thank you for saying that.


Now...honestly with some of the comments I’m seeing here, It’s scary how uninformed a lot of people are. I come from a family with many DRs in it, and my mother with a Dr. in psychology. The vast majority of our conversations revolve around mental health. It’s no wonder why people don’t seek help. This thread is a perfect example. If I was on the fence about seeking professional help for a mental illness, but owned firearms, this thread would stop me dead in my tracks from seeking help. When you call them basket cases, Say they need to be put in loony bins, and want to automatically take their rights away for committing themselves and seeking help. I find that disgusting. This guy committed himself, because he wanted help, and said he was hearing voices and wanted to harm others. The system failed this guy, by letting him go 2 weeks in, that is insanely negligent. Whoever was in charge of his care should lose their license.
 
@fx77 I’ve personally known several people who committed themselves voluntarily. They were not suicidal or homicidal or hearing voices. 2 had a anxiety. They completely of sound mind. have a moral compass intact, and want to see others happy not suffering.

I feel like they should still have the right to defend themselves and not have 2A stripped because they sought help. No offense and with all due respect, but it’s sounds like you’re advocating for a government agency to use personal health information to decide if people like myself and others can own a firearm? I mean where does it stop?You give them an inch and they take a mile. This will trigger a bill to have everyone undergo a physical evaluation before owning a firearm. It’ll never stop

Here’s my question I’d pose to you. Who is to decide what constitutes mentally ill or unfit to own a firearm?
To your question, I think the standard that has been in place for a long long time, should be the deciding criteria. What is sad is that it's nothing new. If they are a danger to themselves or others and have communicated their threats or exhibited behavior such as hallucinations, hearing voices, that would be a good place to start.

Additionally, not to demean the victims, but I have no idea what country some people are living in where they think nothing is going to happen. No one was armed? Sorry, that is unacceptable at this time in this country. I visit ME and it is not a strict gun control state. I used to get their non resident permit for the summers I would spend there when they didn't have reciprocity with my state. But I don't go anywhere and feel like I'm 100% safe. Not too long ago I heard someone say they would rather die than have to shoot someone. Well, that's great for you, but how about your kid/kids? I have no idea what illusion people are living under. The day of Unthinkable Atrocities is over. Everything is thinkable at this point. Drone attacks are probably coming... but it will be unthinkable to some politician who will of course call for more gun control.

Democrats aren't even serious about stopping gun violence so it is a waste of time to even listen to them. The party that thinks it would be easier to disarm hundreds of millions of people, rather than lock up criminals and actually take credible threats from people seriously... it is just ridiculously unserious... they know it. They just want to keep their constituents stupid and keep them revved up with hysteria for many nefarious reasons: distraction, fund raising, voting if there is an election coming up and so on.

People need to realize that nowhere is safe. I don't bowl often, but when I did, I didn't disarm myself... and I am terrible too. I know people don't want to live in fear, but it doesn't take living in fear to be prepared. Why make it easy for evil people?
 
To your question, I think the standard that has been in place for a long long time, should be the deciding criteria. What is sad is that it's nothing new. If they are a danger to themselves or others and have communicated their threats or exhibited behavior such as hallucinations, hearing voices, that would be a good place to start.

Additionally, not to demean the victims, but I have no idea what country some people are living in where they think nothing is going to happen. No one was armed? Sorry, that is unacceptable at this time in this country. I visit ME and it is not a strict gun control state. I used to get their non resident permit for the summers I would spend there when they didn't have reciprocity with my state. But I don't go anywhere and feel like I'm 100% safe. Not too long ago I heard someone say they would rather die than have to shoot someone. Well, that's great for you, but how about your kid/kids? I have no idea what illusion people are living under. The day of Unthinkable Atrocities is over. Everything is thinkable at this point. Drone attacks are probably coming... but it will be unthinkable to some politician who will of course call for more gun control.

Democrats aren't even serious about stopping gun violence so it is a waste of time to even listen to them. The party that thinks it would be easier to disarm hundreds of millions of people, rather than lock up criminals and actually take credible threats from people seriously... it is just ridiculously unserious... they know it. They just want to keep their constituents stupid and keep them revved up with hysteria for many nefarious reasons: distraction, fund raising, voting if there is an election coming up and so on.

People need to realize that nowhere is safe. I don't bowl often, but when I did, I didn't disarm myself... and I am terrible too. I know people don't want to live in fear, but it doesn't take living in fear to be prepared. Why make it easy for evil people?
I agree With 99.9 percent of what you said brother. The current criteria seems perfectly fine to me, and if you are adjudicated, you are more than able to go through the court system and fight it. I personally don’t think anything on that front needs to change.

Unfortunately I’m not that fortunate. I live in NY. To get a pistol permit here is an uphill battle, and with the New laws they basically want you defenseless. For example. Your truck gun needs to be locked and your ammo in a separate place. I drive a standard cab pick up. That’s not even possible. Oh well. $300 fine. One day I’ll get out of this prison I call a home.
 
Red Flag and yellow Flag rules do not work as long as there is a barrier of Personal Health Records (PHR) and the NICS system
HIPPA needs a rewrite to permit Risky mentally ill from legally obtaining firearms, and or removing them from the possession of the mentally ill.
But
The excuse to ban guns is all the libs/left need.
I think if his mental illness was taken seriously and he was involuntarily committed, by a competent Dr., he might have been added to the NCIS. I know he would have in my state.

But the reality is, even if he was a prohibited person, if he was dedicated to his mission, he was going to go ahead with it regardless. A competent LE agency or competent mental health program/system is never going to be a substitute for being prepared.
 
I have not herd anywhere that he was a prohibited person. And I know many people from all around that area from all walks of life. He was in NY this summer training with other servicemen (would a prohibited person be allowed to train?). They were the ones that actually reported him and got him committed for comments he made. He did not commit himself voluntarily from anyone I have spoken to from the area.
His sister in law stated that he targeted these two places because the last few times he was there he herd people talking about him. His family tried to convince him nobody was saying anything.
Maine does have yellow flag laws. If this guy did not check all of the boxes then who would?

This is a very bad situation for our LEOs. He is the worst case they would ever want to deal with. Avid outdoorsman, hunter and firearms instructor. One of the guys he was training with this past summer stated he was the best and most proficient person he knew with a firearm. Several people have stated that he told them he was hearing voices telling him to do things.
It has been 36 hrs since the incident and they honestly dont have a clue where he is. Between where they found the car and his family's property is 5 miles of heavily wooded area he grew up hunting.
Remember, his car was found 2 hrs after the incident at a boat landing. With that amount of time if he had a boat stashed that he could drag over two small dams, that would get him to the ocean with hundreds of islands. So, LEOs are not certain if he fled by foot, car or boat.
 
I should add that on the evening of the incident I did hear on the news that Card was a registered sex offender. But I have not herd that since. Which it did not make since how he could be a firearms instructor and train with reservists in NY being a restricted person.
As another poster mentioned, the news was so inaccurate in the beginning. They stated 22 and up to 30 dead with 50-60 wounded.
 
Yeah, we need to bring back 10 acre facilities, with high fences, nice buildings, and good staff. And lots of meds. would be cheaper than treating them in jails and homeless. lawmakers don't understand the public pays for it one way or another. better to pay for it upfront, seems expensive, but shutting down the mental health funding has really messed up this country for last 30 years. treat these crazy bastards, keep them off the streets. and I mean keep them off the streets permanently. Jails are the THE most expensive way to house these folks, and the least effective. Not to mention, it would definitely prevent a lot of the stupid killings of crazy people on the street. Not sure how helpful it would be in preventing the guy who wants to kill 20 people.
Mental hospitals were emptied anc closed because they developed medications
They never considered the mentally ill would not and coule not be forced outside these instituti8ons to take those medications
Before meds many lived in mental institutions run by the state for 20-30 years. One in DE had a swimming ppoool and tennis courts. Miot there were undifferentiated schizophrenics. Then I had a friend who grew up on the state mental hospital gorunds in Deer Park NY where his father was chief psychiatrist. He told me he always had folks with whom to play.

Requiring Red flag laws etc myst be carefully written to preserve the rights of the individual. The unfortunate problem is that Liberals, and 90% of psychologists and psychiatrists, who have a broad tolerance for aberrant behavior, are also anti firearm.

No disagreement now about whether or not the Maine Shooter should have been prevented from having a firearm. Just a little to late.
 
I think if his mental illness was taken seriously and he was involuntarily committed, by a competent Dr., he might have been added to the NCIS. I know he would have in my state.

Still, even with that part of the law, it's not as though it'd keep a determined assailant from arming-up anyway. (Recidivism data shows this, if nothing else does.) It'd just ensure the source wasn't the ACME Gun Shop down the street, the next time around.
 
A Defense Department official disclosed that Card's unit, the 3rd Battalion, 304th Infantry Regiment in Saco, Maine, requested law enforcement intervention in July after being alarmed by his erratic behavior. New York State Police responded and transported him to Keller Army Community Hospital at the U.S. Military Academy for an evaluation, according to NBC News.

Army spokesperson Bryce Dubee said in a statement that the Army did not provide training for him as a firearms instructor, and nor did he serve in such a capacity within the Army, the outlet reported.

In a Yellow flag state, why was this not enough to make him a restricted person?
 
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I haven’t read all of this but I heard that he attended this bowling alley with a group of deaf related people. Recently it was reported that newly acquired hearing aids of some type made him hear voices that people were against him. This guy doesn’t look crazy in the eyes like some, no telling what meds he was on. What a tragedy for these victims families.
 
@Ned Ludd for the win on your first paragraph! Thank you for saying that.


Now...honestly with some of the comments I’m seeing here, It’s scary how uninformed a lot of people are. I come from a family with many DRs in it, and my mother with a Dr. in psychology. The vast majority of our conversations revolve around mental health. It’s no wonder why people don’t seek help. This thread is a perfect example. If I was on the fence about seeking professional help for a mental illness, but owned firearms, this thread would stop me dead in my tracks from seeking help. When you call them basket cases, Say they need to be put in loony bins, and want to automatically take their rights away for committing themselves and seeking help. I find that disgusting. This guy committed himself, because he wanted help, and said he was hearing voices and wanted to harm others. The system failed this guy, by letting him go 2 weeks in, that is insanely negligent. Whoever was in charge of his care should lose their license.
Your comments, while sincere, reflect a lack of full understanding. The system is designed to save cost and driven by insurance companies and government widget counters. They have very strict rules about when and how long they can keep a person in house, that are focused more on cost savings than necessary care and treatment.

As reflected in some of the threads above, the number of in-house mental health facilities has been greatly reduced, with many being shut down and the patients dumped on the streets. The existing hospitals are generally full with long waiting list. This says a lots about our society, and how we treat those that desperately need help.

It is hard to reconcile how our government sends billions of our dollars oversees, while letting our citizens suffer without providing them necessary mental health care. But that is what is happening.
 
Agree Ccrider, also, I can’t see diminishing Card’s role in this. If a man can sense that he is mentally and morally degenerating because he is entertaining violent ideations and asks for help, he is on the way to doing exactly what the impaired driver does who hands his keys to another.

That would-be drunk driver is not particularly heroic for recognizing he got drunk after driving himself to an establishment to start drinking. In my mind he has basically done the bare minimum required in a society where we want to be allowed to socially drink.

Supposing no one will drive him home, well, go outside and sit on a bench. You bought a car, you drove it to a bar and started drinking. Technically, no one can fail you at this point. Don’t trust yourself anymore? Give up drinking or give up driving.
 
Still, even with that part of the law, it's not as though it'd keep a determined assailant from arming-up anyway. (Recidivism data shows this, if nothing else does.) It'd just ensure the source wasn't the ACME Gun Shop down the street, the next time around.
That's basically what I said in the next paragraph. If he's dedicated to his mission, nothing will stop them. But he might be at the ACME Gun Shop... directing his sister or girlfriend to get the one he wants. That happens a lot.

I never plan my security based on a ridiculous gun control law or a background check system. I plan my security based on assuming someone is going to come at me, at a time and place of their choosing, so I have to be ready. My plan is to win... and of course call US Lawshield. lol
 
Sadly, LEOs have no idea where this guy is. There was 2 hrs that passed from the shootings until they found his car about 5-6 miles away.
Deer season opens tomorrow and the LEOs dont know for sure how they are going to deal with that. 1/2 of the citizens think its open season on the suspect and I think we can all assume what will happen if the suspect gets cornered by a hunter in orange.
 
Agree Ccrider, also, I can’t see diminishing Card’s role in this. If a man can sense that he is mentally and morally degenerating because he is entertaining violent ideations and asks for help, he is on the way to doing exactly what the impaired driver does who hands his keys to another.

That would-be drunk driver is not particularly heroic for recognizing he got drunk after driving himself to an establishment to start drinking. In my mind he has basically done the bare minimum required in a society where we want to be allowed to socially drink.

Supposing no one will drive him home, well, go outside and sit on a bench. You bought a car, you drove it to a bar and started drinking. Technically, no one can fail you at this point. Don’t trust yourself anymore? Give up drinking or give up driving.
I mean that's the nature of impairment. I'm a mental health clin and I have a whole career of anecdotes when working with folks, tons of folks get in trouble because the nature of alcohol is it impairs judgement, same with serious medical concerns, or mental illness.

People look for anything in their deteriorating condition for a reason to point and say "No I'm fine", case in point people dealing with mom/dad with dementia and they're hell bent on getting a car and cruising the world. Usual justification is "Well if I crash and I die, then it was my time!" but reality is usually they survive the crash, or kill someone else, or even run over a kid on a bike.

My own brother who is active duty tried to end his own life twice in the last 3 years before he was finally able to admit he had a serious problem and didn't try to cover it up. He's grounded now, well supported and gave up his weapons. I actually am very proud of him for realizing finally it was way outside of his control and wasn't safe, last 3 years were hell and he absolutely fixated on me as a blame target as I was a pretty obvious boundary that raised the alarm during his first attempt which was serious, sustained and quite violent.

Its not just "Personal" responsibility, which I like, and practice in spades, but we all collectively should hope for accountability, and accountability absolutely comes with risks, letting a friend know you're worried about them often comes with the standard response people oft give when they are faced with a dilemma they don't know how to navigate of "Deny, deflect, counterattack".

Its awful when someone at a range flags you, especially when we're with our kids, most people have no problem stepping in, but a lot of folks will hand waive it and just be like "Guy is a fool, we're out!" There is an element of risk to every bit of that.

We all navigate this with the resources we have, and connections we've made and the risks we're comfortable with, some of us are way better equipped than others, and we all have different ethics and points of view. I love to shoot, and will bring my kids, but if one of them later had active suicidal ideation, I'd frankly find a different past time all-together, because no amount of "What ifs" or worries over society are worth losing them, other folks would be like "I'll buy a safe!" neither are terrible responses.

Heck its a risk even writing this to some degree. Putting yourself out there comes with a lot of things.
 

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