A very sad day in Maine and the country..Active shooter
- Thread starter Scalloper
- Start date
The guy had been in a hospital or some type of institution for mental issues. He heard voices.
The call goes out once again, starting with the President, for " 'Assault weapons' ban, 'high capacity' magazine ban, universal background checks, safe gun storage laws and red flag laws." Which of these would have prevented this shooting?
If he was mentally defective (is that still the term on a 4473?) he was prohibited from acquiring or owning a gun. Yet for whatever reason these things are not are not available to NICS because privacy rights or something. Gosh it almost seems like 'they" don't want to implement effective measures.
Edit to add; reading up on this. So he had checked himself in to some kind of mental care, and had recently threatened to shoot up the Army facility where he served. New York State Police took him to a US Military facility for evaluation where he was held for two weeks. A cousin said he is schizophrenic.
Another mass shooter who should never have had a gun.
'nother edit; just read his family had called police and military reporting he was having an acute mental health crisis. Time between the call and the shootings was not stated but it did say his sister said his mental health was deteriorating rapidly "months" before the shooting.
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fx77
Gold $$ Contributor
Red Flag and yellow Flag rules do not work as long as there is a barrier of Personal Health Records (PHR) and the NICS system
HIPPA needs a rewrite to permit Risky mentally ill from legally obtaining firearms, and or removing them from the possession of the mentally ill.
But
The excuse to ban guns is all the libs/left need.
HIPPA needs a rewrite to permit Risky mentally ill from legally obtaining firearms, and or removing them from the possession of the mentally ill.
But
The excuse to ban guns is all the libs/left need.
D Coots
Silver $$ Contributor
Senate passes Kennedy amendment protecting veterans' Second Amendment rights
The Senate voted in favor of an amendment introduced by Sen. John Kennedy that protects veterans' Second Amendment rights when the VA steps in to manage their financial benefits.
Old corn pop will veto this.
@fx77 I’ve personally known several people who committed themselves voluntarily. They were not suicidal or homicidal or hearing voices. 2 had a anxiety. They completely of sound mind. have a moral compass intact, and want to see others happy not suffering.
I feel like they should still have the right to defend themselves and not have 2A stripped because they sought help. No offense and with all due respect, but it’s sounds like you’re advocating for a government agency to use personal health information to decide if people like myself and others can own a firearm? I mean where does it stop?You give them an inch and they take a mile. This will trigger a bill to have everyone undergo a physical evaluation before owning a firearm. It’ll never stop
Here’s my question I’d pose to you. Who is to decide what constitutes mentally ill or unfit to own a firearm?
I feel like they should still have the right to defend themselves and not have 2A stripped because they sought help. No offense and with all due respect, but it’s sounds like you’re advocating for a government agency to use personal health information to decide if people like myself and others can own a firearm? I mean where does it stop?You give them an inch and they take a mile. This will trigger a bill to have everyone undergo a physical evaluation before owning a firearm. It’ll never stop
Here’s my question I’d pose to you. Who is to decide what constitutes mentally ill or unfit to own a firearm?
it will change when the perps get dropped on the spot, can't believe there was not at least 8 guns in a full bowling alley
the cops need to make it a point not to take these people alive. oh God! I'm really sorry he moved his hand. not a jury in the country would convict.
JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
Unfortunately your conclusion is very incorrect. Have you been asleep the last 20 years?
I can see voluntary commitment for having hard times and depression, but not for hearing voices and threatening to shoot up the reserve center. You check in for hearing voices and for being homicidal, I don't think a 2 week stay will do the trick. His voluntary commitment could have easily transitioned to an involuntary civil commitment. The facility can make the call on the spot and then submit their case in front of a judge. Why this wasn't done is the question that should be asked.
And I wonder if they supplied him with a hefty diet of psychotropic goodies to stuff his face with day and night.
And I wonder if they supplied him with a hefty diet of psychotropic goodies to stuff his face with day and night.
Infrequent Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
Yeah, we need to bring back 10 acre facilities, with high fences, nice buildings, and good staff. And lots of meds. would be cheaper than treating them in jails and homeless. lawmakers don't understand the public pays for it one way or another. better to pay for it upfront, seems expensive, but shutting down the mental health funding has really messed up this country for last 30 years. treat these crazy bastards, keep them off the streets. and I mean keep them off the streets permanently. Jails are the THE most expensive way to house these folks, and the least effective. Not to mention, it would definitely prevent a lot of the stupid killings of crazy people on the street. Not sure how helpful it would be in preventing the guy who wants to kill 20 people.
...and did he take those meds? It seems today's logic is that a zombied out nutcase is much better than one left to deal with life without drugs...fwiw. But it's inhumane to put them away. We just trust that they voluntarily self medicate....a crazy person, mind you, to do the job of a hospital.
Don’t cause “poof” of the threads, guys, like the one yesterday about Europtic.
Maybe it’s not the self-admission, but the talk he made about shooting up the base, a few months ago, in this case.
We just had a pilot off duty riding in the cockpit attempt to cut the engines on the plane. I want to say half of the worst crashes in recent times are suspiciously intentional-appearing. I don’t have any problem with sidelining questionable acting caps.
It’s got to come down to behavior. Sometimes there may be no tell, - the truly deviant, - but the one that was once “ok” bending on the way to a snap may be “creaking” along the way.
We think the problem is youth, and we get an old guy in Chinatown. We think it’s the disenfranchised frustrated poor, and we get the MGM megasuite, wealthy high roller at young-retirement age.
We think it’s the maladjusted in the midst of a life transition, and it’s this 20 year vet with the hardest part done, or the UT Clock Tower Marine, CW, that looks like a drop fit cut out for any job requiring trust and traditional values, - by picture, the son in law you want?
We have come to accept you can’t joke about certain things in certain places, under freedom of speech. Put the same hat on Amendment 2. I’m not keen on losing my gun rights because some one else wants to test the legal system on how many scurrilous hypothetical remarks he ought to be able to pop off and get away with before considered to be a real threat, then he cracks.
Fella needs a basket of psychoactive therapeutic prescriptions to stay on the sunny side of prison walls? Well, that covers a broad swath, what would DOT, DOD, the FAA, active law enforcement, etc say about that particular concoction, maybe yes maybe no, but the point is there are well established ways to analyze the mentally challenged.
Our true gun enthusiasts are a lawn of green grass. Trouble is that little weeds blend and mimic the look of grass. Guys that would ever claim temporary insanity, - they don’t have any business with guns, or flying planes. The problems they carry spillover to the rest of us, and they are not 2A people. They are plain and simple marginal abiders of law, when at their best, and prowling criminals at worst, and we should be on the lookout for signs of them.
Maybe it’s not the self-admission, but the talk he made about shooting up the base, a few months ago, in this case.
We just had a pilot off duty riding in the cockpit attempt to cut the engines on the plane. I want to say half of the worst crashes in recent times are suspiciously intentional-appearing. I don’t have any problem with sidelining questionable acting caps.
It’s got to come down to behavior. Sometimes there may be no tell, - the truly deviant, - but the one that was once “ok” bending on the way to a snap may be “creaking” along the way.
We think the problem is youth, and we get an old guy in Chinatown. We think it’s the disenfranchised frustrated poor, and we get the MGM megasuite, wealthy high roller at young-retirement age.
We think it’s the maladjusted in the midst of a life transition, and it’s this 20 year vet with the hardest part done, or the UT Clock Tower Marine, CW, that looks like a drop fit cut out for any job requiring trust and traditional values, - by picture, the son in law you want?
We have come to accept you can’t joke about certain things in certain places, under freedom of speech. Put the same hat on Amendment 2. I’m not keen on losing my gun rights because some one else wants to test the legal system on how many scurrilous hypothetical remarks he ought to be able to pop off and get away with before considered to be a real threat, then he cracks.
Fella needs a basket of psychoactive therapeutic prescriptions to stay on the sunny side of prison walls? Well, that covers a broad swath, what would DOT, DOD, the FAA, active law enforcement, etc say about that particular concoction, maybe yes maybe no, but the point is there are well established ways to analyze the mentally challenged.
Our true gun enthusiasts are a lawn of green grass. Trouble is that little weeds blend and mimic the look of grass. Guys that would ever claim temporary insanity, - they don’t have any business with guns, or flying planes. The problems they carry spillover to the rest of us, and they are not 2A people. They are plain and simple marginal abiders of law, when at their best, and prowling criminals at worst, and we should be on the lookout for signs of them.
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Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
A generalized scheme to remove someone's Constitutional Rights because they seek any kind of mental health evaluation is totally UNACCEPTABLE. The same can also be true with Red Flag laws; the potential for mischief and unwarranted removal of firearms and Constitutional Rights from individuals that are not any kind of threat whatsoever is simply much too high. All it takes is one person that has a grudge against someone else. Last time I checked, the fact that someone disliked you was not sufficient grounds to have your Constitutional Rights revoked. Having said that, those things usually aren't necessary. Consider the last sentence of the OP, which was a response from someone at the scene that either knew, or knew of the, the suspected shooter:
He stated…
Harder to bowl carrying. At the bar maybe. It was Cornhole night. They think he had a jet ski or dirt bike by the river. Don’t think he is done and is going to go hard.
This kind of statement suggests that people there in Maine were aware of this guy and his problems. That is almost always the case, but nothing ever seems to come of it until after something bad happens. One has to ask themselves the question, why is that? For almost every mass shooter in the last few years, lots of people came out after the shooting and stated that they knew the shooter was a problem. In other words, the signs were there. So I think the real questions we need to be asking are why these individuals feel the need to kill a bunch of people, and how can we effectively disarm them before they start shooting people, but without the propensity for mischief and misuse that seem to be inherent with most current red flag gun laws? The guns are not the problem. There are numerous other ways someone that is really intent on harming/killing people can accomplish that goal. Understanding the psychology of why they feel the need to do it will likely help to identify those individuals at high risk of this kind of behavior. Enabling the advance removal of firearms from those that really are a risk to society without trampling the 2nd Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens will not be easy, but will have to be done unless our society as a whole (majority) is willing to take the path of least resistance and remove everyone's 2A rights without due process. I for one am not willing to go down that road.
He stated…
Harder to bowl carrying. At the bar maybe. It was Cornhole night. They think he had a jet ski or dirt bike by the river. Don’t think he is done and is going to go hard.
This kind of statement suggests that people there in Maine were aware of this guy and his problems. That is almost always the case, but nothing ever seems to come of it until after something bad happens. One has to ask themselves the question, why is that? For almost every mass shooter in the last few years, lots of people came out after the shooting and stated that they knew the shooter was a problem. In other words, the signs were there. So I think the real questions we need to be asking are why these individuals feel the need to kill a bunch of people, and how can we effectively disarm them before they start shooting people, but without the propensity for mischief and misuse that seem to be inherent with most current red flag gun laws? The guns are not the problem. There are numerous other ways someone that is really intent on harming/killing people can accomplish that goal. Understanding the psychology of why they feel the need to do it will likely help to identify those individuals at high risk of this kind of behavior. Enabling the advance removal of firearms from those that really are a risk to society without trampling the 2nd Amendment rights of law-abiding citizens will not be easy, but will have to be done unless our society as a whole (majority) is willing to take the path of least resistance and remove everyone's 2A rights without due process. I for one am not willing to go down that road.
Larry Koch
Silver $$ Contributor
This is by design, just wait for illegals to start the next wave of shootings. Red flag laws who decides? The individuals who cross dress, some pretend to be a cat or dog?
will they decide who is sane. Come on man, Popcorn should have taught you better.
Democrats hate USA. And are winning.
will they decide who is sane. Come on man, Popcorn should have taught you better.
Democrats hate USA. And are winning.
Agreed but the only common denominator that most of us will agree on is that it takes someone that's at least a little off their rocker to shoot another human unless in self defense. Better dealing with mental health, the most common root cause of these events, is the most logical approach, imho. That's not to say that we should put anything above our rights as I believe there is a cost worth paying for those rights and better management of what the real underlying cause is, beats fighting those that blame the gun instead...at least imo. They're coming after something and it's not the guns fault but it will get the blame unless we can come to an agreeable and logical different place to focus on. Again, mental health is a tough one but that's where 90 something percent of these things are based...not the gun. I'm sure we agree on that but the hard part is how to implement something that has very little support from the populace. I sympathize with anyone that has a loved one that suffers from any sort of mental issues, even down syndrome and autism, etc but that's exactly where we have to start. Yes, it sucks but give me a better AND honest answer. That brings us to another question that we can all support. That being, how do we reduce or eliminate those types of mental health issues?
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If I remember right it was in the Reagan administration that the institution’s were done away with, so it’s been snowballing for a time now.
I don't know when it happened but I think we're beyond worrying about how or when but we need to find an answer that is not politically motivated but actually gets to the root cause. I also don't think the number of these events has drastically changed but the reporting and awareness of them and the public's view, has.
Murray Brook
Silver $$ Contributor
@gunsandgunsmithing
I agree with the mental health issue but what puzzles me is people and guns have been around for a long while. Why all of this in the last 20 yrs. With what our fathers and the VN vets went through you would think that they would be candidates for this but not so. Maybe because in school they taught strict morals that lasted. JMO
I agree with the mental health issue but what puzzles me is people and guns have been around for a long while. Why all of this in the last 20 yrs. With what our fathers and the VN vets went through you would think that they would be candidates for this but not so. Maybe because in school they taught strict morals that lasted. JMO
He was never a firearms instructor. He also spend two weeks in a psychiatric ward this past summer.
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Again, I think a big portion of the issue is how it's reported and that the actual number of such events has not DRASTICALLY changed but we certainly HEAR about it more. Another thing is what constitutes a mass shooting is different now than a few years ago.
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