Anyone like racing?

[Jayplace]

You mentioned the iron heads.

Surprisingly, whe I ran Super Stock, I used the big square port Iron heads instead of the aluminum L-88 head. The reason was simple. They made more power.
In APBA Super Stock, we were allowed to run one of four engines. The 427 L-88 Chevy, The 426 Chrysler Wedge, The 426 Chrysler Hemi, or the 427 Ford Tunnel Port.

The vast majority ran the Chevy.

These were suppose to represent a Factory crate engine. Aside from tearing the engine down and bringing everything to specs, you could not do much of anything else. No head work or intake porting what so ever. You could run TRW replacement pistons as long as the compression did not exceed the factory specs. You could run any flat tapped cam, but you could not fly cut the pistons or sink the valves.
the oiling system had to be stock, or using a factory spec aftermarket pump. You could run an aftermarket pan.
The stock oiling system is why few ran the 426 Hemi. Unless you could highly modify the oiling system, they would blow. The Big Block Chevy, as most know, has one of the best engineered oiling systems made.
Another reason we ran iron heads was because of the head bolt pattern, with that big gap between 4 of the cylinders. The Factory Aluminum heads were hard to keep sealed there. With the SK and K Boat engines, you could braze a boss in the valley and place a bolt in the intake port floor of the aluminum head. It was not legal in SS.

We even had to run the factory stamped steel rocker arms. If one got hot and stated galling up during a race, it would pull the rocker stud boss right out of an aluminum factory head. That wasn’t a problem with the iron heads.

We generally ran the SS motors at around 7000 rpm. A good one probably made an honest 500 hp.

In one sense those were the good old days because it kept things on somewhat of a level playing field. On the other hand, much better parts are available now, and to everyone. With the current parts and a good engine builder an engine can be turned to higher rpm's than back in the good old days. You turned yours 7,000 which was pretty high, and more like I would expect a small block to run. But, as you know, V-Drives do like rpm's.

Speaking of the Open Chamber iron heads, the person who does my heads told me the iron heads will flow almost as much as many of the newer aluminum heads when worked on. He doesn't like to work on them because they take so much more work than an aluminum head. I had him do the iron heads on my Hallett and he does charge more, but for durability, they hold up very well. Over the years, the aluminum heads on my Cole have show deterioration in the water passages that won't happen near as much as iron heads.

When you were running yours, I knew almost nothing about Circle Boats. I enjoyed them when saw them though. Did you ever run at Town Lake in Austin?

When I got my Cole, which was around 98 or 99, I got involved with some serious racers and built mine to run the 9.0 class, when they ran 1/4 mile. Due to friendly rivalry, I ended up getting a blower and blew through my original goal.

 

[jackieschmidt]

In one sense those were the good old days because it kept things on somewhat of a level playing field. On the other hand, much better parts are available now, and to everyone. With the current parts and a good engine builder an engine can be turned to higher rpm's than back in the good old days. You turned yours 7,000 which was pretty high, and more like I would expect a small block to run. But, as you know, V-Drives do like rpm's.

Speaking of the Open Chamber iron heads, the person who does my heads told me the iron heads will flow almost as much as many of the newer aluminum heads when worked on. He doesn't like to work on them because they take so much more work than an aluminum head. I had him do the iron heads on my Hallett and he does charge more, but for durability, they hold up very well. Over the years, the aluminum heads on my Cole have show deterioration in the water passages that won't happen near as much as iron heads.

When you were running yours, I knew almost nothing about Circle Boats. I enjoyed them when saw them though. Did you ever run at Town Lake in Austin?

When I got my Cole, which was around 98 or 99, I got involved with some serious racers and built mine to run the 9.0 class, when they ran 1/4 mile. Due to friendly rivalry, I ended up getting a blower and blew through my original goal.

Town Lake, in Austin? Heck yea. The biggest race of the year in the Southern Drag Boat Association was The Austin Aquavestival. They ran the Circle Races last. I went to no less than eight of them. In the SDBA, they ran two classes based in cubic inches. 400 and below, 401 and above, all on gas.

We used to have huge crowds. Lots of boats.

If you were ever there, you probably remember Jerry Spiller. He ran in the carbureted Gas Flat Bottom class. He was the first racer to ever show up with a Hondo Runner Bottom. He instantly made every other hull obsolete. The “runner boat wars” were on.

Brendell finally carried to the ridiculous extreme. They showed up at Lake Liberty with a boat that looked like they glassed a 2 x 4 edgways on the chines. If I remember, it did not run worth a darn and was never actually sold to the public.

Sanger made a boat called The Circle Sanger. The only problem was it would not turn worth a darn. They were fast, though.

Lavey Craft made a hull the was only 17 feet long, the had a legal APBA bottom, but had an extreme amount of ”rocker”. in smooth wpater, they would sit right baclk on the tail a really run fast. Of course, when the water got all stirred up after the first lap, all bets were off.

That’s what made the Biesemyer so good. They handled rough water really well, ran fast enough to win, and turned like they were on rails.

Here is a picture of me coming out of a turn at Lake Liberty in the very first race after I got my last hull. I had not even had time to paint the numbers on, I just used duct tape.

You can see by the circular wake it was essentially a one pin turn.

 

[Jayplace]

Town Lake, in Austin? Heck yea. The biggest race of the year in the Southern Drag Boat Association was The Austin Aquavestival. They ran the Circle Races last. I went to no less than eight of them. In the SDBA, they ran two classes based in cubic inches. 400 and below, 401 and above, all on gas.

We used to have huge crowds. Lots of boats.

If you were ever there, you probably remember Jerry Spiller. He ran in the carbureted Gas Flat Bottom class. He was the first racer to ever show up with a Hondo Runner Bottom. He instantly made every other hull obsolete. The “runner boat wars” were on.

Brendell finally carried to the ridiculous extreme. They showed up at Lake Liberty with a boat that looked like they glassed a 2 x 4 edgways on the chines. If I remember, it did not run worth a darn and was never actually sold to the public.

Sanger made a boat called The Circle Sanger. The only problem was it would not turn worth a darn. They were fast, though.

Lavey Craft made a hull the was only 17 feet long, the had a legal APBA bottom, but had an extreme amount of ”rocker”. in smooth wpater, they would sit right baclk on the tail a really run fast. Of course, when the water got all stirred up after the first lap, all bets were off.

That’s what made the Biesemyer so good. They handled rough water really well, ran fast enough to win, and turned like they were on rails.

Here is a picture of me coming out of a turn at Lake Liberty in the very first race after I got my last hull. I had not even had time to paint the numbers on, I just used duct tape.

You can see by the circular wake it was essentially a one pin turn.View attachment 1475975

Damn Jackie, you look like you were smiling. I can't tell, did you have on any eye protection?
The only circle boat I remember was known as, "The worlds fastest Bass Boat", but I do remember the Circle Boats running. They were fun to watch. I've been to several other races where the Circle Boats were featured too.

Yea, I went to Town Lake a number of times around that time. I didn't know very many that raced then, so the only people I knew, or actually knew their names were from California. Nearly all of the racing magazines carried the names of the California guys and their boats and not much from anywhere else. They were my Rock Stars.

The Blown Fuel Flats were still running then and they were awesome to watch. I think there must have been something wrong the drivers because when I look back at it now they were crazy. They were in open flats and the hydro's too. It wasn't long after that they started requiring capsules and outlawed the Fuel Flats. That was an awesome time.

I had gotten married shortly before I started going to Town Lake and since she was with me, I had to be careful about how long I looked at some the sights there, and I'm not talking about boats.

 

[Jayplace]

Sanger made a boat called The Circle Sanger. The only problem was it would not turn worth a darn. They were fast, though.

Did that Super Sanger have a Gull type bottom?

 

[ebb]

When i embarked on a power plant for my 63 nova bracket car, it was mostly set up for a big block, and the local race builder friend of mine pushed me that way. I found an engine from a Lake Worth wrecked police car, but my investigation proved it was a 2 bolt main engine. I ha read somewhere that their was a guy in California that had built more big bock Chevy's than anybody else. So i called him and told him my horsepower requirements. Did i really need a 4 bolt main engine? He told me in all the years that he had been building big blocks he had never had one of his come apart at the mains, and rarely went out of his way to find a 4 bolt engine to build on. I must assume that it was all to the well designed oiling system you pointed out.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Did that Super Sanger have a Gull type bottom?

Yes, it was kind of a gull wing arrangement, just enough to meet the APBA rules. They had a bubble deck as well.

I remember a racer out of Louisiana that had one named “Super Chicken“, running in Super Stock. He would come close to catching you on the straight away but give it all up in the turns

 

[jackieschmidt]

Damn Jackie, you look like you were smiling. I can't tell, did you have on any eye protection?
The only circle boat I remember was known as, "The worlds fastest Bass Boat", but I do remember the Circle Boats running. They were fun to watch. I've been to several other races where the Circle Boats were featured too.

Yea, I went to Town Lake a number of times around that time. I didn't know very many that raced then, so the only people I knew, or actually knew their names were from California. Nearly all of the racing magazines carried the names of the California guys and their boats and not much from anywhere else. They were my Rock Stars.

The Blown Fuel Flats were still running then and they were awesome to watch. I think there must have been something wrong the drivers because when I look back at it now they were crazy. They were in open flats and the hydro's too. It wasn't long after that they started requiring capsules and outlawed the Fuel Flats. That was an awesome time.

I had gotten married shortly before I started going to Town Lake and since she was with me, I had to be careful about how long I looked at some the sights there, and I'm not talking about boats.

We did not wear goggles or a face shied in Circle racing. It was “close quarter combat”. If you got any spray from another boat‘s rooster tail or in a turn on them, you couldn’t see. You just had to grin, (or grimace) and take it. It wasn’t like you could take a hand off of the steering wheel it wipe it off.

Speaking of the Blown Fuel Flats. Do you remember when Ray Caselli died in his called “Panic Mouse”.


Hot Rod Magazine had done an article on him in their “Rails With Rooster Tails” section featuring his blown fuel Hemi and a new steel fabricated strut he was selling. About two months later he died in it.

 

[Jayplace]

We did not wear goggles or a face shied in Circle racing. It was “close quarter combat”. If you got any spray from another boat‘s rooster tail or in a turn on them, you couldn’t see. You just had to grin, (or grimace) and take it. It wasn’t like you could take a hand off of the steering wheel it wipe it off.

Speaking of the Blown Fuel Flats. Do you remember when Ray Caselli died in his called “Panic Mouse”

Hot Rod Magazine had done an article on him in their “Rails With Rooster Tails” section featuring his blown fuel Hemi and a new steel fabricated strut he was selling. About two months later he died in it.

I do remember Ray Caselli, his boat and his death. He's probably one of the best known drivers of flats ever. Even today, he gets talked about on a regular basis.

 

[Jayplace]

Yes, it was kind of a gull wing arrangement, just enough to meet the APBA rules. They had a bubble deck as well.

I remember a racer out of Louisiana that had one named “Super Chicken“, running in Super Stock. He would come close to catching you on the straight away but give it all up in the turns

The guy I bought my Stevens from had raced it the year he had it, but wanted to step up and purchased a light Sanger that had the Gull Bottom. At the time, I had never seen a light boat and he told me not to lean on it. You could flex the deck with just light pressure, and on most of the other parts too. My Stevens was a standard weight and you could walk on the deck.

The person who had the Sanger may have moved to Louisiana and his name was David. That was 50 years ago.

 

[jnr88]

Long before mirage became a worry.

 

[gpoldblue]

These were the best of days!

And the days before Bill France and associates ran Ford and Chrysler out of NASCAR!

 

[Jayplace]

My 64 was an original 340HP 409, 4 speed, 4:11's, posi, and factory tach. Always titled in Iowa. Bought from my duck hunting buddy in 1988 for $2,750...Body was basically rust free interior was shot. This is the 2nd motor I've had built for the car. It's 60 over and stroked a quarter inch for 482CI. Cam is 714/639 at 110* Puts out 595Tq@5,500 and 688Hp@6,900 Best time so far is 10:42@129 These W engines got a bad rap as far as I'm concerned because people overwrapped them like they did small blocks and the rods and upper end wouldn't take it. The combustion chamber was really weird being in the cylinder. Right now I'm running a sintered iron clutch, a G-Force clutchless 5 speed with a 3:25 first gear, and 4:56 spool. 10.5X28X15" stiff sidewall Mickey Thompson rubber. I do all my own work except the engine building. Right now I have a guy building me a 511CI engine which should put out 750Hp. It should hit the dyno this month. The guy has built well over 600 of these W engines so he knows his stuff.

We have no club...someone decides to put on a race, we just show up. This year there were 2 in Ohio and the one I'm having in Iowa. Basically the only rules are no delay boxes and a W based engine. Two steps, line locks, and trans brakes are OK. A couple have blowers. Not sure the W design gets along well with NOX. No turbos that I've seen. There is a couple of World Products 540CI and a big inch prototype Lamar Walden made that are racing. These are running around a thousand horse and one is fuel injected. They run in the 8's and one may dip into the 7's at my race.

Like you say, these old dinosaurs are iconic and turn a lot of heads at races. For sure there are many alternatives to make more horsepower much cheaper. There are 23 cars signed up and many are nice looking nostalgia rides. Cars are coming from Texas, Colorado, Minesota, Missouri, Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Iowa. The only other gathering of W engine cars larger that this race was in 2014 at Great Bend, Kansas for a 348-409 National Convention. It's gonna be a hoot. 409's race on Saturday then will enter in races for a Wally on Sunday.

I wondered what kind of power people were getting out of those motors today. I know there is a 409 following for sure.

I Had a 58 Impala with a 348 and 3x2's with a three speed. It ran good for the street and in it's class, but My '64 with it's 409 with a 4 speed was much faster.

It's obvious they are getting much more Horsepower now than when they originally came out.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Do you think The Beach Boys ever envisioned this ……..

Google Search

 

[D Coots]

Link doesn't work. Is this correct? There will be one at my race...runs in the eights.

Bill Mitchell Products BMP 085575 – Aluminum Engine Block Chevy 409 W Block 9.600 Deck, 4.310 Bore, Billet Caps – Bill Mitchell Products

billmitchellproducts.com

 

[Dave M.]

I used to like the A/F classes

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/fue...-heyday-wild-wooly-wheelstanders-tire-fryers/

IIRC, ~1800 lbs with narrow/short wheelbase, 392 supercharged Hemi running 70% nitro(?) for about 1800 hp, and the driver straddled the pumpkin. What could possibly go wrong ?


View attachment 1172702

That’s no way to be fast….you gotta have them rear wheels on the ground…lol

 

[mauser284]

Dad was in the US Army so I spent 12 years in Germany. So while I hate NASCAR F1, Indy, WRC, Rally Class B was the stuff of legends! Isle of Man etc......

Unlike most Americans I can honestly claim to have grown up driving in excess of 140MPH pretty regularly. I have also raced as an amateur in Europe and until a few years ago did SCCA autocross in the USA. In college I worked as a professional driver for a few seasons before deciding I wanted a family more. When I moved back to the USA around 1991 I got in NHRA for a short time. I did some illegal street racing for a while while working as a tuner before going off to college!

 

[jackieschmidt]

My 64 was an original 340HP 409, 4 speed, 4:11's, posi, and factory tach. Always titled in Iowa. Bought from my duck hunting buddy in 1988 for $2,750...Body was basically rust free interior was shot. This is the 2nd motor I've had built for the car. It's 60 over and stroked a quarter inch for 482CI. Cam is 714/639 at 110* Puts out 595Tq@5,500 and 688Hp@6,900 Best time so far is 10:42@129 These W engines got a bad rap as far as I'm concerned because people overwrapped them like they did small blocks and the rods and upper end wouldn't take it. The combustion chamber was really weird being in the cylinder. Right now I'm running a sintered iron clutch, a G-Force clutchless 5 speed with a 3:25 first gear, and 4:56 spool. 10.5X28X15" stiff sidewall Mickey Thompson rubber. I do all my own work except the engine building. Right now I have a guy building me a 511CI engine which should put out 750Hp. It should hit the dyno this month. The guy has built well over 600 of these W engines so he knows his stuff.

We have no club...someone decides to put on a race, we just show up. This year there were 2 in Ohio and the one I'm having in Iowa. Basically the only rules are no delay boxes and a W based engine. Two steps, line locks, and trans brakes are OK. A couple have blowers. Not sure the W design gets along well with NOX. No turbos that I've seen. There is a couple of World Products 540CI and a big inch prototype Lamar Walden made that are racing. These are running around a thousand horse and one is fuel injected. They run in the 8's and one may dip into the 7's at my race.

Like you say, these old dinosaurs are iconic and turn a lot of heads at races. For sure there are many alternatives to make more horsepower much cheaper. There are 23 cars signed up and many are nice looking nostalgia rides. Cars are coming from Texas, Colorado, Minesota, Missouri, Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Iowa. The only other gathering of W engine cars larger that this race was in 2014 at Great Bend, Kansas for a 348-409 National Convention. It's gonna be a hoot. 409's race on Saturday then will enter in races for a Wally on Sunday.

Those are pretty impressive numbers. You didn’t say, but I figure you are running around 13 to 1 compression. Since you are getting close to 7000 rpm, is the effective duration at .050 in the neighborhood of .265+.

I never got to build a “W“ motor, the Mk 4 Big Block came out just when I was hitting my stride in the hot rod world. One of my hot rod Mentors was the local 409 Guru. His name was Tommy Thacker. He was about 8 years older than me. He had a little Anglia that he ran in one of the Altered classes. , It had a high winding 283.
But his pride and joy was his ‘63 Super Stocker with the twin four barrel 409. Between him and the Fain familly that had an automotive machine shop in Greens Bayou, they had multitudes of 348/409 parts.
I always wondered what happened to all of those blocks, heads, cranks, rods, etc.

There was a rumor floating around that in the 80’s, their old father, who had a falling out with his sons, but owned the business, sold it all to Proler for scrap. That would have been a shame.

Good luck with your 409.

 

[D Coots]

Yep 13-1 and the duration@.050 is 274/282

 

[Steve Jennings]

The Mustangs with flat-plane crank and factory muffler bypass are really offensive in town, and totally illegal in nearly any municipality. Few motorcycles on the street are legal now. The noise laws are simply no longer enforced. I was buying a muffler for my Civic. The kid at the FLAPS counter asked me "Why don't you just leave off the muffler, like I do?" I informed him it would be illegal and he said "Really? Are you sure? Never heard of that."
-

Please elaborate " flat plane crank "

 

[jackieschmidt]

Please elaborate " flat plane crank "

The adjacent rod journals, or throws on a flat plain V-8 crank are 180 degrees apart rather than the conventional 90 degrees.

The theory is the engine tends to rev quicker and make more top end power.

The trade off is harmonics, which can lead to high frequency vibration, which can be hazardous to the life of the engine.

here is a picture that explains the layout. Since many 4 cylinder engines encorporate flat plain cranks. You can picture a V-8 as two 4 cylinders on the same block.

One thing is for sure. They sure sound “different”.