Got brass troubles. Cause ? Video posted

[dantiff2]

Necks are annealed. Case bodies are not.

C'mon.

Not everyone anneals... I never had a separation in all the years i loaded before annealing. Explain post #137. Same failure with a tight chamber..

 

[DShortt]

Obviously we aren't going to agree about this.

Good shootin' to you.

 

[dantiff2]

Obviously we aren't going to agree about this.

Good shootin' to you.

I've looked at this from all angles. I believe this is a brass manufacturing problem. When the weather gets nicer, I may end up pulling 10 brass out of my stash and just see how many loads I can get off my bulk 223 Starline and report back.

Even better shootin' to you sir ; )

Dan

 

[JFrank]

I’m not qualified to speak on the 223 Wylde other than what I’ve googled. There is a couple thousand difference in shoulder dimensions.
Wylde -.357
REM -.355
Should a person use a Remington die on a Wylde chamber ?

Comparing your fired brass numbers to the Wylde chamber drawing I’d say the chamber is fine and your die is for a Remington?

 

[DLT]

I’m not qualified to speak on the 223 Wylde other than what I’ve googled. There is a couple thousand difference in shoulder dimensions.
Wylde -.357
REM -.355
Should a person use a Remington die on a Wylde chamber ?

I got to email back a forth a small amount with Wilson They said their 223 rem dies would not help me

 

[LHSmith]

Any reason you don't confront the barrel manufacture about the oversize chamber? It's been known to happen. Some more than others.

 

[DLT]

Any reason you don't confront the barrel manufacture about the oversize chamber? It's been known to happen. Some more than others.

As @SPJ posted. I’d say my brass and chamber is on par with the prints. I know brass has to spring back a little I would think, not sure on how much but the 223 wylde shows .3572 my fired brass measures .356 - .357 I did speak with the barrel maker about his thoughts on the matter. He said I was running a hot load, and that a cci 450 would hide pressure. He also said bad brass is out there and also that 4-5 firings under those conditions it could happen with sub par brass. If it continues this trend. I will not have anymore wylde chamberings in a bolt gun

 

[Webster]

View attachment 1423069View attachment 1423070

I had a case separate today which was a first. It’s starline brass bumped back 2-3 thou depending on what day it is, and this was the 4th firing. Many out of the 100 I started with shows a faint line outside on the body where it snapped. Anyways I anneal after every firing. 223 cases. I have seen ( not through personal experiences) the case head separate from over sizing and I have had split necks and I have had primers get blown out but not so much this. Helps. +++EDIT+++ I’ll also add I can not feel anything inside the cases where the line is forming with a paper clip. 94 out of the 100 has the obvious line around the outside of the case. 6 doesn’tView attachment 1423205

186 replies. I might as well add one. After looking at the video by F class John he states that case seperation is related to to much head space. Custom dies only makes the case diameters fit your chamber better. Honing only increases the die diameter. The problem is related to to much head space and not case wall fitting the chamber better. Assume that firing the cartidge once and it's a little tight to extract, you adjust your die to bump 2 thou. the bolt closes OK. You fire the case a second time and the bump measurement shows the case grew 4 thou increase in length from the length after the 1st. firing. It was not completly FF after the 1st firing. You size the case with the original die adjustment you now have about 4-5 thou space because the die needs to be adjusted for bump on the new case length not the first one. Watch F Class John's video. In his exampple he gets 7 thou space because you need to check and adjust the die after the 1st, 2nd and maybe the 3rd firing. The case seperation is cased by stretching lengthwise due to abnormal space longitudinaly. Die diameters are not a factor. With F class John's 100 case batch not all cases showed a ring at mid length.

 

[DLT]

186 replies. I might as well add one. After looking at the video by F class John he states that case seperation is related to to much head space. Custom dies only makes the case diameters fit your chamber better. Honing only increases the die diameter. The problem is related to to much head space and not case wall fitting the chamber better. Assume that firing the cartidge once and it's a little tight to extract, you adjust your die to bump 2 thou. the bolt closes OK. You fire the case a second time and the bump measurement shows the case grew 4 thou increase in length from the length after the 1st. firing. It was not completly FF after the 1st firing. You size the case with the original die adjustment you now have about 4-5 thou space because the die needs to be adjusted for bump on the new case length not the first one. Watch F Class John's video. In his exampple he gets 7 thou space because you need to check and adjust the die after the 1st, 2nd and maybe the 3rd firing. The case seperation is cased by stretching lengthwise due to abnormal space longitudinaly. Die diameters are not a factor. With F class John's 100 case batch not all cases showed a ring at mid length.

Good thoughts but I have did that. I set the die up after 3 firings. As I have stated a coulple times at .450 I get resistance during bolt close at .449 .448 I don’t. Have been out of options as far as setting up my die. And yes on this next brass run I’m going to go over my die setup again, again , and again to make sure I have my bump set correctly. Just like I have with this gun and every other rifle I reload for.

 

[LHSmith]

You can get more opinions on what is the cause ad infinitum, If it were me I'd get some cerosafe and do a chamber cast, then get on the phone with the gunsmith or barrel company and demand they make it right. It is not your fault, standard SAAMI dies should work to the point they give a reasonable number of brass cycles (more than 4) irregardless if it's a Wylde chamber. Brass typically shrinks a thou from chamber dimensions after firing. Do a search here on oversize chambers and you'll find many barrel makers are reluctant to offer to inspect or replace a barrel. Tell them them you have tried everything suggested on the accurate shooter website and still have problems. They don't like bad publicity.

 

[Webster]

For calibers you are dedicated to, it is good to own at least the Go-Gage.

With the gage and some tape on the base, you can get a pretty good measure of your rifle's headspace dimension to within the thickness of the tape steps.

Gages are more rigid than brass cases, so you get a pretty good answer without necessarily stripping the bolt, but you can if you want to.

Then, you can use that gage w/tape to reference your Hornady tools to see how virgin or cycled brass compares and to get a much clearer picture of how much you are really bumping.

This doesn't answer all the questions in this thread, but it takes the lengths of the shoulder bump off the table. That still leaves us with diameters and the brass, but at least the bump question is eliminated.

I was surprised that more folks who reload don't own the Go-Gage for their favorite cartridges. They are certainly used by gunsmiths, but have as many uses for reloaders as they do for setting up chambers.

Now for the question of what is causing the OP's issues... If the shoulder bump is taken off the table, and there isn't a huge difference between the chamber diameters and the sizing die, then it would be time to do a fine survey of the brass hardness values, with an emphasis right near the break.

A few samples of virgin, a few samples of brass with two cycles, and a few samples of ones that are either broken or ready to break, and we would have the answers. Here is an example of the values for "normal" mil-spec 556 brass hardness values.

View attachment 1424188

Looks like the transition from hard to soft starts at mid-length and could explain case separation at case body mid-length. This is the first data I have seen to most likely explain mid length speration. TThere has to be a reason for it! The higher hardness would resist stretching and the softer region would stretch easier causing seperation to occur at mid length on every case. Don't know where the VHN data came from but you cannot use 2.5 Kg load on thin sheet metal. 500 gram load is almost the universal load frequired by spec. on all Vickers hardness testing . A 2.5 Kg load would bury the indenter in brass. I performed micro hardness testing at a research center for 47 years. All our testing was to an official spec. The numbers do look very realistic and I believe them.

 

[RegionRat]

Don't know where the VHN data came from but you cannot use 2.5 Kg load on thin sheet metal. 500 gram load is almost the universal load frequired by spec. on all Vickers hardness testing . A 2.5 Kg load would bury the indenter in brass. I performed micro hardness testing at a research center for 47 years. All our testing was to an official spec. The numbers do look very realistic and I believe them.

I agree. I never ran the force that high either.
I lifted that version from a modern report, that lifted it from the original specification drawings for the M855. You will see it in the lower left hand corner of the drawings.




It is in the original drawing that keeps going down the road and non of us pay attention to it. Like you, I used anywhere from 100 to 1000 grams depending on the study, lower on the cross sections of the necks and bodies, and higher on the case heads.

XRD would be informative if there were any extraordinary residual stress issues, but for X-Ray Diffraction you would need a bigger credit card. With a little time in the lab, it would be easy to tell if there was anything out of place without a lot of trouble, but easy in the labs doesn't mean cheap.

The only "cheap" option for the OP would be to get lots of cycles on a different brand or lot of brass and see what happens.

 

[Ggmac]

Sorry for late reply. Post 72 pictures clearly show a difference in interior polish at the separation area . Did anyone else see that .
I skimmed the 10 pages so sorry if its already been discussed.
Gary

 

[DShortt]

Sorry for late reply. Post 72 pictures clearly show a difference in interior polish at the separation area . Did anyone else see that .
I skimmed the 10 pages so sorry if its already been discussed.
Gary

I did and commented on it but I don't know if there's any significance to it?

 

[RegionRat]

Sorry for late reply. Post 72 pictures clearly show a difference in interior polish at the separation area . Did anyone else see that .

I did and commented on it but I don't know if there's any significance to it?

Without running a profilometer there, it is hard to say from just the photos.
The design does have a transition there where the thickness profile comes up from the head with a taper and then blends to a thinner profile right at that place.

Even then, without knowing the hardness and residual stress, we wouldn't know if those are rejects or normal.

 

[DShortt]

Without running a profilometer there, it is hard to say from just the photos.
The design does have a transition there where the thickness profile comes up from the head with a taper and then blends to a thinner profile right at that place.

Even then, without knowing the hardness and residual stress, we wouldn't know if those are rejects or normal.

I freely admit I've not segmented brass cases ever so I've no idea what the interior finish typically looks like but I do have a Teslong bore scope and some new Starline brass. .223 Remington to be exact. I'll post some photos soon. This should be interesting.

 

[DLT]

Sorry for late reply. Post 72 pictures clearly show a difference in interior polish at the separation area . Did anyone else see that .
I skimmed the 10 pages so sorry if its already been discussed.
Gary

There is a difference in the finish your correct. There is also a divot/low spot right there also.

 

[DLT]

I freely admit I've not segmented brass cases ever so I've no idea what the interior finish typically looks like but I do have a Teslong bore scope and some new Starline brass. .223 Remington to be exact. I'll post some photos soon. This should be interesting.

I did the same experiment with 2 new starline cases, I couldn’t see squat with the bore scope. I can however pick up the slightest irregularity inside the body when shining a flashlight through the case mouth but it’s hard to pick up. I split those cases and it was there. I have also fired 8-10 of a new batch of starline brass and can feel the line on the outside of the brass. I really feel it’s mainly the brass fault. LC brass is holding up better BUT I am not running that hot of a load. I have decided against the hot load that was shooting pretty good.

 

[RegionRat]

There is a difference in the finish your correct. There is also a divot/low spot right there also.

I did the same experiment with 2 new starline cases, I couldn’t see squat with the bore scope. I can however pick up the slightest irregularity inside the body when shining a flashlight through the case mouth but it’s hard to pick up. I split those cases and it was there. I have also fired 8-10 of a new batch of starline brass and can feel the line on the outside of the brass. I really feel it’s mainly the brass fault. LC brass is holding up better BUT I am not running that hot of a load. I have decided against the hot load that was shooting pretty good.

An earlier die punch used to deep draw and start the head has a cone shaped taper to a straight diameter, then a later die starts the body taper. So... In that place, there is always a radius blend or facet transition from the taper thickness to the thin wall body that is very difficult to judge visually because it is bent after that deep draw.

You either section or run the profiles to know for sure. We had custom probe tips to plunge down through the necks and get into the body so we could check non-destructively. The outside was easy.

Not every lab had the capability, so many places just section.

 

[Jeff Porter]

I have seen this bad annealing of Starline brass rearing its head on more than one forum lately. All from the 2021 lot it seems.