"The Copper Fouling Lie"

[gme]

29 pages on bore solvent testing of an "improved formula" with "improved copper de fouling properties" from the US Army Aberdeen research and Development center
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD0748807.pdf

 

[jackieschmidt]

About 20 years ago, the Krieger Barrel page had a section on cleaning where they stated that with their cut rifled barrels, you should not clean them to the point that all of those small striations(a product of the cut rifling process), were void of what ever built up in there. The theory was after the first shot, they are back. In short, we don’t shoot matches with squeaky clean barrels.

I have followed that ever since. I just use a simple cleaning regime with Butches, a bronze brush, and patches. Of course, I usually do this after every group.

In recent years, I have noticed that Krieger took that tid bit off of their Web Page. Maybe they changed their mind.

But I haven’t. I still use the same process that has served me well for many years. My Rifles still shoot pretty darned good.

As for the guy in the video. He’s full of crap.

 

[K22]

My experience contradicts his opinion. I don’t shoot competition, I just shoot a lot and like small groups and long range stuff. Whether I’m trying to shoot a small group or make a hit way out there at some point the barrel will lose its best accuracy and require a clean. I have taken just the carbon out of many barrels and not had my accuracy return like it should, then I take the same barrel and remove the copper the best I can and accuracy returns. Some barrels are far more touchy than other barrels, especially factory barrels on factory rifles, some barrels last longer before needing a super scrub, every barrel is different but for me it’s has been very clear and at times frustrating that copper fouling is a factor. I think Boyd offered good advice, do your own experimentation and avoid some you tubers, even if they seem like a nice guy.

On another note I’ve always liked the accents you get from the northeast part of the country, would guess his from Maine or Upper NY - I’ve never been to either one but just taking a guess.

New Hampshire. Retired police officer, I think at rank of captain but not sure on the rank, trained factory armorer, US Army Vietnam Veteran, trained police officers in marksmanship, also trained police snipers. Distinguished Expert in NRA Precision Pistol.

 

[Phys86]

I was going to mention the above, but k22 did. I don't think he's trolling or necessarily full of crap. I've watched a lot of his past videos when I just got started and they're helpful, just not something that's geared towards shooting gnat's ass accuracy rifles to 1000 yards. He has said in a few videos there's a difference between copper fouling and a copper wash(?). His point on this always struck me as intriguing considering I've seen some copper in my barrels that looks like it has fringes coming up off the surface and other types that I would consider a "wash". I've not a clue on the validity of that and it doesn't steer my cleaning regimen.

I haven't watched the posted video, so I can't comment on that. But I will now

 

[markT]

Didn’t watch it but I’d trust Wheeler or Corinna or Speedy or Ackleyman II. You know guys that actually shoot and have experience.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Several years ago, the late Gene Bukys and I did an experiment.

There was a big discussion on Benchrest.com about this very subject.

So we tool a stainless steel cleaning rod, and made a stainless steel jag for it.

We then took a good shooting 6PPC and put 50 rounds through it.

We then took som Barns Copper remover, and saturated some patches. The first patch had a ting of blue, but the next four or five had quite a bit. It then started to taper off untill the Patches came out clean.

Now, there was no bronze brush, no brass jag. Where did all of that blue come from?

 

[dcali]

Several years ago, the late Gene Bukys and I did an experiment.

There was a big discussion on Benchrest.com about this very subject.

So we tool a stainless steel cleaning rod, and made a stainless steel jag for it.

We then took a good shooting 6PPC and put 50 rounds through it.

We then took som Barns Copper remover, and saturated some patches. The first patch had a ting of blue, but the next four or five had quite a bit. It then started to taper off untill the Patches came out clean.

Now, there was no bronze brush, no brass jag. Where did all of that blue come from?

This reminds me of something that bit me when I first started using KG-12. No blue came out on the patches. I thought "This stuff sucks". But a look through the borescope told me it doesn't. It's actually really good - it just doesn't produce whatever oxide that is that turns patches blue.

Similarly, it took me a while to figure out that JB always turns patches black, even when the bore is squeaky clean. Go figure.

And for those who don't know, you can get jags that don't have any copper in them for this very reason. I think they're aluminum, but I might be misremembering.

 

[KMart]

Other words of wisdom here. At about 6:05 in, " If you don't have a cold hammer forged barrel, you have a rough bore"
The only thing missing here is the big round red nose, ruffled collar and oversized clown shoes

 

[K22]

I was going to mention the above, but k22 did. I don't think he's trolling or necessarily full of crap. I've watched a lot of his past videos when I just got started and they're helpful, just not something that's geared towards shooting gnat's ass accuracy rifles to 1000 yards. He has said in a few videos there's a difference between copper fouling and a copper wash(?). His point on this always struck me as intriguing considering I've seen some copper in my barrels that looks like it has fringes coming up off the surface and other types that I would consider a "wash". I've not a clue on the validity of that and it doesn't steer my cleaning regimen.

I haven't watched the posted video, so I can't comment on that. But I will now

I have watched all of his videos. If the posted video gets a rise out of you, watch his videos on Barrel Break In, Gun Cleaning and Solvents, and How to Clean a Rifle Professionally. Those will really fire you up and get the juices flowing.

He's an S&W factory trained armorer and his videos on S&W revolver maintenance are worthwhile. For a guy that doesn't use copper solvents, watch his video on his 222 Tikka testing and the 3/8" groups he shot. Must have just been lucky shots, right?

I have no comment on his "copper fouling" assertions. All the experts say you have to remove it right? They must know because they are experts. So clean away and be happy. Besides, what could Mr. GunBlue490 know, he's only been shooting and reloading for 50+ years and hasn't won any benchrest or F Class titles.

Oh Gee, did I just stir the pot again, when will I learn? Wasn't the thread on Skip Shims bad enough!

PS: Maybe us old guys just like the smell of Hoppe's No. 9. I often though it to be the perfect aftershave.

 

[Phys86]

I was going to mention the above, but k22 did. I don't think he's trolling or necessarily full of crap. I've watched a lot of his past videos when I just got started and they're helpful, just not something that's geared towards shooting gnat's ass accuracy rifles to 1000 yards. He has said in a few videos there's a difference between copper fouling and a copper wash(?). His point on this always struck me as intriguing considering I've seen some copper in my barrels that looks like it has fringes coming up off the surface and other types that I would consider a "wash". I've not a clue on the validity of that and it doesn't steer my cleaning regimen.

I haven't watched the posted video, so I can't comment on that. But I will now

Well after watching it.... Obviously there's a lack of knowledge in chemistry there with the statement made about copper pipes and solvents that dissolve copper hurting steel. And his statement about copper fouling not existing and him never having encountered it before, well he is contradicting himself in an earlier video or two that he made where he talks about copper fouling.

Anyway, copper fouling seems to exist in my barrel. It gets bad enough to throw my shots quite a bit wider around 25 rounds.

 

[Ray123]

I like thinking out of the box...why I quit barrel break-in proceedures years ago...yep I followed all the recommended proceedures and products of the time...hundreds of dollars wasted. Bronze brushes, special patches, Butches Boreshine, Pro Shot, Sweets, Montana, Hoppe's, JB, and a host of others. A bottle of Butches almost unused, full probably 10 yrs old...just like all the rest.
None of em worked ...according to..me. So I don't use them, I ain't gonna spend much time cleaning, and no barrel brake in.
Here is a good example, I bougbt a complete upper (always a mistake) in 450 Bushmaster, it was a Faxon the components were fine except the barrel was very rough, not as bad as their 3 twist 8.6 Blackout with chunks of metal missing in the bore...nothing worth breaking in...it ain't an accuracy project.
So I definitely ain't gonna spend time breaking it in. But polish the bore with Iosso paste...and its time to test loads ...no cleaning 125 rds fired..502, 420, 342, grain cast first...no cleaning. Changed to jacketed bullets and change powder, from 1680 to LilGun.
Ran 185, 210, 215, 225, 245, 250, 325, 395, and 2 varieties of 300 gr.Swift & Hornady.
Took the gun home...pull the bolt and spray foam bore cleaner in it...left it over night. Spray brake cleaner in the muzzle brake and run a clean rag to get the gunk out. Followed by 2 Iosso patches lubed, pumped through the bore...lube and dry patch...done. a few minutes time.
Check it with a bore scope...spotless...nice clean bore...with all the imperfections Exposed! No copper in any of the thousands of heavy reamer marks, no powder build up. Just a shiny clean bore, ugly as hell with all the imperfections. No brushes, no special cleaners, no work.
The 6 Dasher gets the same treatment...no break-in, same cleaning procedure, but it has a much better barrel, 13, 5 shot groups with 2 different powders and a host of bullets averaged .313" first time out. No cleaning, just shooting. And I'm satisfied with the results, of testing.
Everyone, seems to have an opinion on this, I just go by what works for me. No sure what the mitary does these days, some of it good, some not so much...like let's substitute this massive amount if contract small arms powder we have sitting around for the M16 ammunition, never mind it's the wrong burn speed, ...And during the middle of a war.

 

[BoydAllen]

Yeah that's always a red flag for me .when someone starts talking about accuracy and they bring up the military
Honestly the accuracy standards we have in the military ,in reality, arnt that impressive imo. I'll hva to find some of my old zero targets but I'd be getting told how well of a shot I was and I'd be looking at my 30m zero target like " I mean if you say so". That's not me trying to brag just saying what we considered acceptable accuracy isn't something I'd personally use a as some kinda guide you know. And I have to do hitting a full sized EPSIC out to 300m eleven with irons isn't hard with a half decent rifle. Definitely don't need a spotless clean bore all the time. But like I said it's a big target.
I was able to chat with one of the snipers at chow one time. Ends up most snipers guard side are big into precision shooting civilian side. Was asking about accuracy requirements and all and was very very surprised when he shrugged and said "MOA".
Think Phillip velyho ( think that's how you say his last name ) spoke about this , comparing a military sniper rifle and civilian precision rifle and how their two different animals.
Then the way we treaded our rifles ! I mean yeah we cleaned them but I would HATE to run a bore scope though one of the M4 or M16 barrels I had so yeah using "military standards" as a accuracy standaed is beyond a red flag for me.

A bore scope is on my wish list since I like buying used beater guns and I do bullet casting, I see it as a very good tool ,just what most call inexpensive and what I call inexpensive are two different things it's coming though

As far as YouTube, I quite enjoy it but, I'm not really always looking for definitives answers like it seems many do. More less I just like seeing what everyone does and why. I like hearing different ideas and thoughts about why this or that works or similar. Sometimes I'll just listen to something just for back ground noise . I mean honestly I'll happily listen to anyone from billy Joe talking about the .22lr he found in a barn to guys likes Erik Cortina talking about optimal barrel timing . Very rarely do I just believe everything I'm told though ( lotta folks can't stand me because of this ). Especially when it comes to what I'm doing. And when someone starts saying how they know something because their an "expert " or something or their calling themselves something like " the real gunsmith" I'm immediately questioning them.
In this case I quite enjoy watching and listening to this guy . He comes off as the old school be accurate but don't get crazy with it type . Which I feel is quite beneficial to most average guys just shooting deer at 60yd . But after listening to multiple interviews with high grade barrel manufacturers who say copper fouling isn't good and after seeing all the guys winning competitions where they are shooting groups in the 0's who say they do everything they can to eliminate any and all fouling ..... Well what he's saying just doesn't seem right.
One of my favorite quotes goes along the lines of
" Question everything even the existence of God for surely he most appreciate this more then blind followers"

Anyhow I'm babbling now at this point.

I have custody and full use of one of the expensive ones, including the right angle eyepiece, and it languishes in its case because I prefer the cheapest Teslong, that cost me all of $55 plus tax, with free shipping via Amazon Prime. I usually use it in my front bedroom gun/computer room, plugging it into one of my computer's USB ports. This affords me a spectacular view on a 22 inch monitor. I have downloaded a free app for my android phone and can use that to see what the inside a barrel if a computer is not handy. In the last couple of years I have suggested that friends who I have helped with their reloading and overall shooting programs, buy the same thing, and they have emailed me pictures and videos that we have discussed while solving their cleaning problems. For more information search the main forums page for Teslong.

Added a little later: Here is a link to my suggested search. https://forum.accurateshooter.com/search/672242/?q=Teslong&o=relevance

 

[FNSafari]

My experience contradicts his opinion. I don’t shoot competition, I just shoot a lot and like small groups and long range stuff. Whether I’m trying to shoot a small group or make a hit way out there at some point the barrel will lose its best accuracy and require a clean. I have taken just the carbon out of many barrels and not had my accuracy return like it should, then I take the same barrel and remove the copper the best I can and accuracy returns. Some barrels are far more touchy than other barrels, especially factory barrels on factory rifles, some barrels last longer before needing a super scrub, every barrel is different but for me it’s has been very clear and at times frustrating that copper fouling is a factor. I think Boyd offered good advice, do your own experimentation and avoid some you tubers, even if they seem like a nice guy.

On another note I’ve always liked the accents you get from the northeast part of the country, would guess his from Maine or Upper NY - I’ve never been to either one but just taking a guess. His is NOT a native Mainer accent.

He is originally from Massachusetts now in income and sales tax free New Hampshire. His is a real mass accent unlike the one Cliff Claven manufactured on Cheers.

 

[Rat Rifle]

Some years back He stated the only solvent needed to clean a rifle barrel was Hoppies #9, or it’s base ingredient, White Mineral Spirits. That takes off some copper, but not much.

Bore scope…I have the NIDAGE from Amazon. Can’t get much simpler or cheaper. Works great.

 

[LHSmith]

Other words of wisdom here. At about 6:05 in, " If you don't have a cold hammer forged barrel, you have a rough bore"

Exactly. How could someone with those "credentials' make such a statement? He goes out of his way to avoid mentioning "borescope" while explaining what you would find if you cut the barrel lengthwise and examined it under a microscope. I get the impression he doesn't hold the "benchrest" thing in high regard. He should also be advised to change his bronze brushes more regularly, clean them with alcohol or similar after use, and buy quality brushes that don't shed their bristles.
The basic message may be fine for casual shooters, but why expound on exaggerations and untruths. Took 14+ minutes to say what should have taken only 3.
Wonder if he ever tried the original Barnes solid copper bullets and reached the same conclusion.

 

[lotech]

LIke a few other subjects, copper fouling discussions can go on forever with much bad information and testing based on all that's erroneous. I didn't waste time looking at the video. Lots of good information on YouTube but at least as much that's not. It's like watching "The View" or "Daily Blast Live" while hoping your IQ doesn't get lowered in the process. It's difficult to explain this to hard core YouTubers, newschoolers, upgraders, and gadgeteers but YouTube and some forums are perhaps the very best ways to spread bad information quickly. From all appearances, it seems some people learned reloading in this manner - that's like getting a degree from an unaccredited college in a fourth world country.

There is the actual doing of something and learning from it and there's still much to be said for paper published material that's edited professionally and contains largely good information, even if you don't agree with it. Good places to develop enough background to know what's wothwhile material and what's not and then search the Internet for the 25% of righteous information that's available there. However, the aforementioned proper prerequisite processes may be too slow for many these days.

 

[SKWERLZ]

Other words of wisdom here. At about 6:05 in, " If you don't have a cold hammer forged barrel, you have a rough bore"
The only thing missing here is the big round red nose, ruffled collar and oversized clown shoes

And a I voted for Xiden/hyena pin!

 

[JSH]

I watched it for about 4-5 minutes, when he said ALL of his rifle barrels were exceptionally accurate, that is when I quit(5 more minutes of my life wasted on YouTube).
Opinions are like elbows everyone has a couple, but when you sit there with a matter of fact way I am done. He thinks a lot of himself to boot.
I would imagine his exceptionally good rifles accuracy is a paper plate at 50-100 yards.
Show me some results just don’t talk about it. I believe he may be a professional BS’r by trade.

He gives opinions, like they are facts.

 

[rogina]

About 20 years ago, the Krieger Barrel page had a section on cleaning where they stated that with their cut rifled barrels, you should not clean them to the point that all of those small striations(a product of the cut rifling process), were void of what ever built up in there. The theory was after the first shot, they are back. In short, we don’t shoot matches with squeaky clean barrels.

I have followed that ever since. I just use a simple cleaning regime with Butches, a bronze brush, and patches. Of course, I usually do this after every group.

In recent years, I have noticed that Krieger took that tid bit off of their Web Page. Maybe they changed their mind.

But I haven’t. I still use the same process that has served me well for many years. My Rifles still shoot pretty darned good.

As for the guy in the video. He’s full of crap.

I agree with your cleaning method. I call it shooting condition. He is full of crap!

 

[Phys86]

I watched it for about 4-5 minutes, when he said ALL of his rifle barrels were exceptionally accurate, that is when I quit(5 more minutes of my life wasted on YouTube).
Opinions are like elbows everyone has a couple, but when you sit there with a matter of fact way I am done. He thinks a lot of himself to boot.
I would imagine his exceptionally good rifles accuracy is a paper plate at 50-100 yards.
Show me some results just don’t talk about it. I believe he may be a professional BS’r by trade.

He has shown in his other videos his rifles are exceptionally accurate, by his standards, well under 1moa.