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Jan 2023 NRA Highpower RuleBook

As Keith pointed out, an elastomeric recoil pad does the same. Should they also be banned???
Perhaps. Perhaps a solid wooden or steel butt plate is the only thing that satisifies their rules. Would that be a problem for you? I have very nice shotguns that have a wooden butt plate and I've shot thousands of rounds from them.
 
I have a great close-up slow-motion video of a RAD in action. It is of my daughter shooting 215 hybrids in a FTR rifle. Shows almost full compression (I tuned the damping and springs to the load) But more importantly it shows the shoulder moving back a significant amount. You have to push the rifle back into battery after each shot. I don't have the ability to post it. (youtube link etc)
Does the RAD ever fully extend to it's original position? And does it do that while she is assisting the rifle back into battery? As I said, if the RAD reextended after the time for the string had expired, one would be hard pressed to create an argument that the RAD provides an assist in the return to battery. It would be more like rollers in that case wherein there is no assist.
 
When I started in F-Class 1 ½ years ago, I chose to go down the F-TR route. I saw F-Open as a discipline that would constantly be evolving in the areas of equipment, load development, round development, (wildcats), etc., all in the pursuit of greater precision and accuracy. But, regardless of the technological advancements, at the root of it is the finely honed skill of the shooter. The discipline still requires skill to read the wind, drive the rifle, withstand the mental and physical wear and tear of a match, work the pits, move your gear, setup your gear, take a battering from the wind, on and on. I also thought F-Open would be a bigger money pit. Boy was I mistaken.

With that said, I started with a MPA Hybrid chassis PRS rifle I converted to F-Class by installing a heavy palma barrel. I was using a fixed Accutac bipod and rear squeeze bag. I found myself at a disadvantage as I looked down the line and saw adjustable bipods, Joypod, Phoenix, Tier One, and sloped rear fixed bags to match up to the toe drop of the prone stocks in use. I thought I could help myself with installation of an Adjustable Bag Rider and a flat top Protektor bag. I used it for a club match or two. But, after much back and forth with the NRA High Power Competition Dir, input from folks on these forums, and a match director I greatly respect, I dismounted the ABR and waited impatiently for my Joypod-X.

My scores would indicate I received no advantage from the ABR. I have not received any advantage from the Joypod either. I still need to develop and hone my shooting skills. We’ll see if moving to an F-Class specific build will help me, (XIT stock, Defiance action, Joypod, heavy Palma barrel, NF Comp scope). Some of those components were on the MPA chassis, the stock and action are the big changes. I very seriously doubt it will help. My skill level just isn’t there yet. But, the occasional 196-11x keeps me coming back.

My point is this;
  • To think having rollers on an F-Open rest is a mechanical advantage over other rests I’ve seen on the line is ridiculous.
  • To think an ABR mounted to a F-TR rifle offers an advantage over a Joypod, Phoenix, or other adjustable ski footed bipod at the front end is also ridiculous.
If I suck as a shooter, (I do), all the technology at my disposal won’t change that. I still have to learn to drive the rifle. I still have to learn to read the wind. I still have to develop the mental fortitude to compete in this difficult game. Rollers, no rollers, ABR, no ABR. Matters not. Skill still defines the competitor.

My stance on the NRA? The NRA has ceased to serve the competitive shooter and gun owners in general. They have been splayed open by all the legal actions against them. The only thing the NRA seems capable of is, collecting competition fees, posting scores to the Competition Portal months after match directors have sent them in, and promulgating ridiculous rules.

I’ve spoken my piece and counted to 3.

Yeah, I’m in a bad mood again tonight.

Oh, and BTW, I’ve seen fore-end stops mess up shooters, so no mechanical advantage there.

If we want to shoot off-hand, let’s shoot Silhouette. Hardest damn game ever.

Well said.
 
Perhaps. Perhaps a solid wooden or steel butt plate is the only thing that satisifies their rules. Would that be a problem for you? I have very nice shotguns that have a wooden butt plate and I've shot thousands of rounds from them.
No...but neither is a RAD and, obviously, the NRA has not made a rule disallowing its use.
 
Rollers do not assist. It is not like they are powered by some magic that counters the recoil of the rifle and physically assists in bringing it back into battery.
They do. If the rifle tries to move sideways, the rollers prevent that. They are sufficiently rigid that the rifle will not move off track.
 
They do. If the rifle tries to move sideways, the rollers prevent that. They are sufficiently rigid that the rifle will not move off track.
Better get rid of those side bags too. The ones on my other rest are hard as a rock and covered with a material as slick as rollers. Yup, lets keep going, We'll be shooting right next to the High Power guys by the time this is over.

And P.S. that other rest is a rest seen being used by the majority of competitors at all major events.
 
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Better get rid of those side bags too. The ones on my other rest are hard as a rock and covered with a material as slick as rollers. Yup, lets keep going, We'll be shooting right next to the High Power guys by the time this is over.

And P.S. that other rest is a rest seen being used by the majority of competitors as all major events.
Side bags are not rigid. By rule they must be able to be compressed. They cannot return the rifle to battery.
 
Does the RAD ever fully extend to it's original position? And does it do that while she is assisting the rifle back into battery? As I said, if the RAD reextended after the time for the string had expired, one would be hard pressed to create an argument that the RAD provides an assist in the return to battery. It would be more like rollers in that case wherein there is no assist.
If you understand how a RAD works you know it does.
(a) F-Class Open Rifle (F-0) - A rifle restricted to a bore diameter no larger than .35 caliber. (Attention is directed to safety fan limitations of various ranges. Individual ranges may further restrict ammunition), “Rail guns” and positive mechanical methods of returning to the precise point of aim for the prior shot are not permitted. Any safe, manually operated trigger is permitted. Any sighting system is permitted, but it must be included in the rifle’s overall weight.
I don't believe a RAD is capable of doing this without assistance from the shooter.
There is no similar rule for FTR rifles.
 
If you understand how a RAD works you know it does.
I know it does

(a) F-Class Open Rifle (F-0) - A rifle restricted to a bore diameter no larger than .35 caliber. (Attention is directed to safety fan limitations of various ranges. Individual ranges may further restrict ammunition), “Rail guns” and positive mechanical methods of returning to the precise point of aim for the prior shot are not permitted. Any safe, manually operated trigger is permitted. Any sighting system is permitted, but it must be included in the rifle’s overall weight.
I don't believe a RAD is capable of doing this without assistance from the shooter.
There is no similar rule for FTR rifles.
And likewise, rollers cannot return a rifle to battery. In point of fact, there is no assist in the direction of battery what so ever as there is with a RAD. The amount of assist being relative and the fact that the assist is present being beyond contestation for anyone who understands the science Newton handed down to us. What is true of rollers is also true of side bags. Yet side bags and RAD's are OK while rollers somehow magically appear to bring the rifle back to battery.
 
I know it does


And likewise, rollers cannot return a rifle to battery. In point of fact, there is no assist in the direction of battery what so ever as there is with a RAD. The amount of assist being relative and the fact that the assist is present being beyond contestation for anyone who understands the science Newton handed down to us. What is true of rollers is also true of side bags. Yet side bags and RAD's are OK while rollers somehow magically appear to bring the rifle back to battery.
OK.
I only got sucked into this because of the RAD discussion.
I am now questioning my decision to do so. :confused:
We both technically agree that the NRA rules are at best inconsistent and illogical. We can all agree on that.
However, you keep using the word assist. It does not appear anywhere that I can see in the rules. You need to move past that because it negates your argument. Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
Side bags are not rigid. By rule they must be able to be compressed. They cannot return the rifle to battery.
I'm sure some fill their side bags with mashed potatoes. I have never encountered those individuals at a match. The side bags I see are rock hard with an ultra slick fabric not unlike Teflon. More often than not they have conformed somewhat to the shape of the forestock providing a guide that no solid material could be it Teflon or rollers. You can see the wear marks in the side bags where they have conformed and act as a guide.
 
I'm sure some fill their side bags with mashed potatoes. I have never encountered those individuals at a match. The side bags I see are rock hard with an ultra slick fabric not unlike Teflon. More often than not they have conformed somewhat to the shape of the forestock providing a guide that no solid material could be it Teflon or rollers. You can see the wear marks in the side bags where they have conformed and act as a guide.
Those bags are illegal. You have to leave them soft enough to deform with your fingers. That's admittedly vague, but it's certainly soft enough that it can't provide a return to the precise point of aim.
 
OK.
I only got sucked into this because of the RAD discussion.
I am now questioning my decision to do so. :confused:
We both technically agree that the NRA rules are at best inconsistent and illogical. We can all agree on that.
However, you keep using the word assist. It does not appear anywhere that I can see in the rules. You need to move past that because it negates your argument. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Yes, we do agree on most aspects. However your position on assist in return to battery would presume that return to battery is allowed as long as it is unguided and/or incomplete. Is that your contention? Is that the intent of the NRA rules?
 
Those bags are illegal. You have to leave them soft enough to deform with your fingers. That's admittedly vague, but it's certainly soft enough that it can't provide a return to the precise point of aim.
I have never seen side bags that are legal then. What would be the purpose of side bags where they not to guide a rifle in both recoil and return to battery? Are they intended to just look pretty? Makes me wonder now about a term I hear all the time surrounding the topic of setup. "Tracking". Sounds like tracking would be illegal in F Open. Tracking requires guidance. Quality tracking requires guidance both at the rest and at the rear bag. The NRA has decided that guidance is against the rules with their "roller" ruling. Perhaps side "guides" of all flavors should be outlawed in addition to rear guidance devices and devices that assist in return to battery.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that by the time the NRA cleans up their rules we will be back to shooting offhand without the aid of a sling.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against these devices. I am disgusted by the inconsistent and sloppy NRA rule changes that disregard science and appear to target a certain manufacturer. My question would be how did this "rollergate" start? Who was the butt hurt individual who lost to someone with rollers and went sniviling to the NRA?
 
I have never seen side bags that are legal then. What would be the purpose of side bags where they not to guide a rifle in both recoil and return to battery? Are they intended to just look pretty? Makes me wonder now about a term I hear all the time surrounding the topic of setup. "Tracking". Sounds like tracking would be illegal in F Open. Tracking requires guidance. Quality tracking requires guidance both at the rest and at the rear bag. The NRA has decided that guidance is against the rules with their "roller" ruling. Perhaps side "guides" of all flavors should be outlawed in addition to rear guidance devices and devices that assist in return to battery.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that by the time the NRA cleans up their rules we will be back to shooting offhand without the aid of a sling.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against these devices. I am disgusted by the inconsistent and sloppy NRA rule changes that disregard science and appear to target a certain manufacturer. My question would be how did this "rollergate" start? Who was the butt hurt individual who lost to someone with rollers and went sniviling to the NRA?
I'm not arguing for or against rules. A lot of this nonsense is why I shoot TR. But the rules are pretty clear that bags have to be relatively soft. A well tracking rifle can be done with soft bags. Maybe not "return to battery" tracking, but close to it.

All this aside, I don't think this matters at all. Benchrest guys have known for ages that overly hard rests will not do you any favors.

Edit: All they're doing with these "clarifications" is muddying the waters. Reminds me of Bill Clinton's famous "That depends on what the definition of 'is' is." What's a bag? What's "positive"? Is felt a bag? Is a side bag a bag? What does "supported by" mean? Is the side of a one piece bag a bag? If a roller can't roll, is it still a roller? What if it's made out of felt? It's silly.
 
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Yes, we do agree on most aspects. However your position on assist in return to battery would presume that return to battery is allowed as long as it is unguided and/or incomplete. Is that your contention? Is that the intent of the NRA rules?
Yes, we do agree on most aspects. However your position on assist in return to battery would presume that return to battery is allowed as long as it is unguided and/or incomplete. Is that your contention? Is that the intent of the NRA rules?
Yes, that is my contention according to NRA's definition. "Incomplete" returning to the precise point of aim for the prior shot, is currently "not" prohibited. What NRA's intention is? Thats anyone guess. I don't think they even know.
 

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