Jan 2023 NRA Highpower RuleBook

[karrarararararar]

I don't subscribe to the "It's a big target so why bother" mentality. I shoot for Xs, so at 600 that is the 10 ring for Fclass, so if Fclass finds a tuner useful, why wouldn't a sling shooter?

Do you think your hold and wind calls are good enough to notice the ⅛moa difference a turner might make?

Those F-class guys are also shooting for X's, not 10's. Geometry will tell you our X ring on the sling target is 4x the area of the F-class X ring. Their target simply requires a much higher level of accuracy. Look at how many xtc shooters shoot phenomenal scores without even doing load development.

If you want to throw a hunk of steel on the end of your barrel, go for it. I doubt you'll see a difference in your scores.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Do you think your hold and wind calls are good enough to notice the ⅛moa difference a turner might make?

Those F-class guys are also shooting for X's, not 10's. Geometry will tell you our X ring on the sling target is 4x the area of the F-class X ring. Their target simply requires a much higher level of accuracy. Look at how many xtc shooters shoot phenomenal scores without even doing load development.

If you want to throw a hunk of steel on the end of your barrel, go for it. I doubt you'll see a difference in your scores.

1/8 moa difference? Closer to 1/2 moa is more like it, ime. Some more and some a little less.

 

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

Do you think your hold and wind calls are good enough to notice the ⅛moa difference a turner might make?

Those F-class guys are also shooting for X's, not 10's. Geometry will tell you our X ring on the sling target is 4x the area of the F-class X ring. Their target simply requires a much higher level of accuracy. Look at how many xtc shooters shoot phenomenal scores without even doing load development.

If you want to throw a hunk of steel on the end of your barrel, go for it. I doubt you'll see a difference in your scores.

My prone hold is about 1/4 MOA. Wind calling is decent, but that's what I practice for.
The old addage that guys shoot phenominal with no load development is just used by guys that don't want to do load development. Sure, it happens, but they are not always at the top, especially looking at 600 yd scores. The tuner would/could replace seating depth testing, thus simplifying reloading.

 

[dcali]

A tuner isn't going to do squat for sling shooters. Any benefit is so much smaller than other sources of error that it will get lost in the noise. I'm also skeptical that a sling gives a consistent enough rest for a tuner to do anything consistent at all.

 

[USMCDOC]

A tuner isn't going to do squat for sling shooters. Any benefit is so much smaller than other sources of error that it will get lost in the noise. I'm also skeptical that a sling gives a consistent enough rest for a tuner to do anything consistent at all.

why are smallbore sling shooters using tuners.?????

 

[dcali]

why are smallbore sling shooters using tuners.?????

No idea. I don't know much about smallbore. From what I've seen tuners have a bigger impact on rimfire than centerfire. I've just never seen a centerfire tuner do enough to make a difference with targets that big off a rest, let alone off a sling. And certainly not standing or sitting.

 

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

A tuner isn't going to do squat for sling shooters. Any benefit is so much smaller than other sources of error that it will get lost in the noise. I'm also skeptical that a sling gives a consistent enough rest for a tuner to do anything consistent at all.

So does seating depth not matter to sling shooters? Honest question as it is my understanding, the tuner can replace seating depth "tuning"

 

[karrarararararar]

My prone hold is about 1/4 MOA. Wind calling is decent, but that's what I practice for.
The old addage that guys shoot phenominal with no load development is just used by guys that don't want to do load development. Sure, it happens, but they are not always at the top, especially looking at 600 yd scores. The tuner would/could replace seating depth testing, thus simplifying reloading.

The piles of awards won by military shooters with mass loaded ammo at national level matches every year would disagree. Many high level civilian shooters too.

 

[karrarararararar]

why are smallbore sling shooters using tuners.?????

They don't have the benefit of load development, only lot testing. The metric targets also require almost F-class level accuracy.

 

[dcali]

So does seating depth not matter to sling shooters? Honest question as it is my understanding, the tuner can replace seating depth "tuning"

I would argue that for most shooters, it doesn't matter much unless it's way off. For the top end shooters, they may gain a couple X's at 600 with a well developed load. The x ring is 1 MOA. So is shooting a 3/8 MOA rilfe that much better than a 3/4 MOA rifle? Maybe, if you're good enough to be annoyed when you shoot a 10. If you're happy with 10s, and are dropping a fair number of points to wind and other mistakes, I don't think it's very important at all. Errors don't really add up proportionally - the largest ones dominate, and the smaller ones get lost. For most shooters, seating depth is a small error in XC shooting.

Standing and rapids? No. I don't think it matters at all. The target is huge, and either you're hitting or you're not. The load won't help you and it won't be what tanks you.

I'm admittedly a lousy XC shooter, but I've done enough of it to say with confidence that it's 95% shooter and 5% gear. You just can't buy very many points. A decent coat will get you more than a dialed in load. A good shooter can win with average gear without a doubt.

That's a big difference from F class or benchrest, which is at least 50% gear and setup. A lot of the shooter's skill is in preparation of the rifle and load development, and you simply cannot win with an average setup. A bad shooter with a good setup can do ok. A good shooter with a bad setup will do poorly. You need both to win.

I would also say that even for a bench gun, a tuner does not generally replace seating depth. Seating depth in my experience is much more impactful. A tuner helps to make subtle adjustments on a rifle that's already more or less under control.

 

[USMCDOC]

They don't have they benefit of load development, only lots testing. The metric targets also require almost F-class level accuracy.

what is the real purpose of a tuner?

 

[Keith Glasscock]

A point of context here -

In F-Open, one can shoot all-day cleans at 600 yards with a hilariously out of tune rifle. Ask me how I know

What does that mean for the sling shooter? Honestly, it means that the shooter is much more important than the tune.

The idea of replacing seating depth testing with a tuner is a mystery to me. Even if we all agreed that it was possible (I don't), then what benefit would there be? The rifle still needs to be shot a lot with great precision to be able to identify whether it is in tune or not and identify best settings. I just don't see the benefit of not doing seating depth testing.

 

[dcali]

I just don't see the benefit of not doing seating depth testing.

I think the argument is that it's easier to do testing with a tuner than with seating depth - you don't have to load at the range or load up rounds carefully ahead of time to test with. You just load up a bunch all the same and let the tuner do the work. If that actually worked - that tuners and seating depth are interchangeable (I agree that it doesn't and they aren't), it would be very nice.

 

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

The piles of awards won by military shooters with mass loaded ammo at national level matches every year would disagree. Many high level civilian shooters too.

You don't think the AMU does load development?!

 

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

I think the argument is that it's easier to do testing with a tuner than with seating depth - you don't have to load at the range or load up rounds carefully ahead of time to test with. You just load up a bunch all the same and let the tuner do the work. If that actually worked - that tuners and seating depth are interchangeable (I agree that it doesn't and they aren't), it would be very nice.

This is what Eric Cortina said he now does, so it got me thinking. For those reasons you mention, simplify load development.

 

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

I would argue that for most shooters, it doesn't matter much unless it's way off. For the top end shooters, they may gain a couple X's at 600 with a well developed load. The x ring is 1 MOA. So is shooting a 3/8 MOA rilfe that much better than a 3/4 MOA rifle? Maybe, if you're good enough to be annoyed when you shoot a 10. If you're happy with 10s, and are dropping a fair number of points to wind and other mistakes, I don't think it's very important at all. Errors don't really add up proportionally - the largest ones dominate, and the smaller ones get lost. For most shooters, seating depth is a small error in XC shooting.

Standing and rapids? No. I don't think it matters at all. The target is huge, and either you're hitting or you're not. The load won't help you and it won't be what tanks you.

I'm admittedly a lousy XC shooter, but I've done enough of it to say with confidence that it's 95% shooter and 5% gear. You just can't buy very many points. A decent coat will get you more than a dialed in load. A good shooter can win with average gear without a doubt.

That's a big difference from F class or benchrest, which is at least 50% gear and setup. A lot of the shooter's skill is in preparation of the rifle and load development, and you simply cannot win with an average setup. A bad shooter with a good setup can do ok. A good shooter with a bad setup will do poorly. You need both to win.

I would also say that even for a bench gun, a tuner does not generally replace seating depth. Seating depth in my experience is much more impactful. A tuner helps to make subtle adjustments on a rifle that's already more or less under control.

Not trying to come off arrogant, but I put myself at the top of the civilian shooters in XTC. So, yes, I am always looking for more Xs. I do agree, it is 90+% mental and the shooter vs gear, but there are times it pays off to tweak your gear. I am trying to evaluate tuner use for my needs.

Agree, standing and sitting the target, position, and cadence would not really benefit from laser beams. I am looking at prone for this discussion.

 

[karrarararararar]

You don't think the AMU does load development?!

Factory ammo on shortline and mass loaded team ammo for long line. You think those guys are developing loads for each rifle?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Factory ammo on shortline and mass loaded team ammo for long line. You think those guys are developing loads for each rifle?

I know for a fact that they do exactly that..or did a few years ago.

As someone who has done(does) extensive testing with tuners, I'll just say that there are several posts here that do not reflect my experiences. I also have the benefit of seeing several hundred or more test targets fired by others that take myself out of the test but their results are ridiculously predictable. I haven't chased the lands in a bbl basically since my very first tuner. There are things that tuners can't fix but they can very clearly change tune....ime, as much or more than powder charge or seating depth.

 

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

Factory ammo on shortline and mass loaded team ammo for long line. You think those guys are developing loads for each rifle?

Yes. They test the rifles they build with the ammo they produce. If the groups are not what they want, they put on a different barrel. It's opposite of what most civies do, but it is load development for each rifle. They spent the time developing a single load, so its like the OCW idea.
That said, it seems each year they have a different load or method. So yes, they are constantly doing load development to find that edge.

 

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

Here's the Cortina video with Dan Newberry where they talk about tuners vs seating depth around the 20-25 min mark. Got me thinking about a tuner for load development.