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Don't outspend them, but out work em!

gunsandgunsmithing

M.Ezell
Gold $$ Contributor
I know we can cut corners and they come back to bite us every time, so this isn't about a Savage vs the world. I'm more interested in hearing your experience and what you see at matches regarding WHY winners win matches. Frankly, yes, money is always a factor but at every match I've EVER been to, there are almost all top quality rifles from one end of the line to the other, with only minor differences in the actual equipment vs one another. IOW, nobody skimped out and the equipment is relatively equal. Yes, gunsmithing matters too but frankly and coming from a former tool and die maker, chambering a good bbl is actually a pretty basic operation to anyone with tool and die experience, where most of the time is spent on the setup being very good and pride of worksmanship is arguably the biggest factor...while pretty doesn't always outshoot ugly, though.

Bottom line here, what matters most to you? Tune or learning how to tune vs how to read the flags and not make any mistakes. Of course conditions play into this but assume an "average" day where you are. Please specify long range or short range as your primary discipline, but both are encouraged and input, one vs the other, as well....especially from those that shoot both extensively. Is one more important than the other distance dependent?
 
Midrange Benchrest and F-Class(600 yd)

One word "WIND". After that ballistic advantage, then load tuning.

That said this is still contingent that you have a load that is fairly decent and consistent. I struggled with this thinking I had t shoot sub 1/4 groups to contend. Then I read Bryan Litz's books and was shown the light. Basically, a 1/2 minute gun in competent hands is tough to beat.
For me the poison I chose was a 223 AI, but that has forced me to learn the wind to compete against the 6,6.5 and 7mm guys. After I learned that lesson I have my share to wins.
But don't just trust, read Bryan. If nothing else all of his books are very informative, written in plain english and usable information.

The short range guys play a different game that just amazes me but I have not ventured down that rabbit hole ------yet?
 
I'm shooting SR BR for score, and both of my rifles will shoot in the .1's and sometimes a .0, but the reason I'm not winning is because of a lack of experience in shooting the wind. Ironically, out of 10 shooters I only finish 5th or 6th at 100, and 3rd or 4th at 200, so there's hope! Even though the winning shooters have more expensive rests, ie SEB NEO's, I'm also beating shooters with that same rest. I'm certain you could take 10 shooters and have them all fire the same gun and loads over a couple days, and they would all finish in about the same spot that they usually do. The best shooters will always separate themselves from the pack, just like any other sport. I will add that I'm under no misconception of thinking that I can beat them with inferior equipment. My stuff is good as well, however it's not the reason I'm not winning.
 
I'm shooting SR BR for score, and both of my rifles will shoot in the .1's and sometimes a .0, but the reason I'm not winning is because of a lack of experience in shooting the wind. Ironically, out of 10 shooters I only finish 5th or 6th at 100, and 3rd or 4th at 200, so there's hope! Even though the winning shooters have more expensive rests, ie SEB NEO's, I'm also beating shooters with that same rest. I'm certain you could take 10 shooters and have them all fire the same gun and loads over a couple days, and they would all finish in about the same spot that they usually do. The best shooters will always separate themselves from the pack, just like any other sport. I will add that I'm under no misconception of thinking that I can beat them with inferior equipment. My stuff is good as well, however it's not the reason I'm not winning.
Sounds like you're catching on pretty fast to the game and I'm betting you'll do well in a short amount of time. Largely because you're finishing better at 200 than at 100. That tells me you're watching the flags and most importantly, you're learning. Kudos to you! You're gonna do good in this!
But, that might or might not be to the point of my question, so I'll ask it another way...Why do YOU FEEL you're not doing better at 100?
 
Patience. As an F-Class shooter, reading the wind conditions is most of the battle, because all the top shooters generally bring excellent equipment and know how to tune a load. Those that pay the most attention to reading the wind conditions, but also have the patience to wait when necessary, usually avoid the train wrecks and finish at the top. It's not easy to do, but more often than not, when a shooter becomes impatient and takes a shot they suspect might be "risky", it usually is, and dropped points will be the most likely result.
 
Second year short range group and score shooter, so my experience is limited compared to more experienced shooters. In my opinion tune is more important. I suck at tuning a rifle but the few matches where my guns were tuned well it made shooting great almost easy. A tuned rifle seems to be pushed less by the wind so small mistakes in flag reading doesn’t hurt you as bad.
 
Midrange Benchrest and F-Class(600 yd)

One word "WIND". After that ballistic advantage, then load tuning.

That said this is still contingent that you have a load that is fairly decent and consistent. I struggled with this thinking I had t shoot sub 1/4 groups to contend. Then I read Bryan Litz's books and was shown the light. Basically, a 1/2 minute gun in competent hands is tough to beat.
For me the poison I chose was a 223 AI, but that has forced me to learn the wind to compete against the 6,6.5 and 7mm guys. After I learned that lesson I have my share to wins.
But don't just trust, read Bryan. If nothing else all of his books are very informative, written in plain english and usable information.

The short range guys play a different game that just amazes me but I have not ventured down that rabbit hole ------yet?
So you feel like bc is worth more than tune? Interesting. My two cents would be that as long as a .5moa rifle is your standard, then you may well be right but I think as your stadard gets higher for your equipment, and for your tune, you might change your mind. But that's why I started this, to get others' opinions. And yes, the discipline matters. I think in your game, if conditions are moderate to bad, a .5moa gun and a shooter that is on his game can win. Not knocking anything at all but in SR BR, a .5 moa finish is almost certainly good for dead last unless someone has equipment issues. Again, not knocking you your equipment or your game...they are just different. Just like freehand is a different game too. I'd be horrible at that these days. I used to could shoot pretty dang well offhand but I doubt I'd be competitive that way any more. Open sights...same way..to me. It's pretty relative I guess.
 
Second year short range group and score shooter, so my experience is limited compared to more experienced shooters. In my opinion tune is more important. I suck at tuning a rifle but the few matches where my guns were tuned well it made shooting great almost easy. A tuned rifle seems to be pushed less by the wind so small mistakes in flag reading doesn’t hurt you as bad.
I think there is truth in that but I also think it's true that..if it's "your day" the game does seem easier than when it's not. If it's my day, I can see things that I might miss on other days. I believe tune has some, but not a huge effect on wind, or vice versa. You know what I mean, probably. But yes, I agree with you for the most part. Thanks for the reply.
 
Three years ago I dipped my toes into the UBR score world. Instantly was aware of the fact that money can buy some of the best equipment for whatever game ya play. No different than drag racing, tractor pulling, show horses or anything else. But after settling down and watching the best of the shooters battle it out all year something became very clear. Matches seem to be won starting at the loading bench. If you have a solid gun, load, rest system your ahead of everyone else who's dealing with issues in those 3 areas. The wind, well that's what they write all those books about.
 
I shoot F Class (FTR) 600 to 1000 yards. (308 off a bipod.)
1. My set up needs to print no more than 3/4 MOA at 1000 for 20 shots. That means NO vertical 9's.
2. My tuning goal is less than .5 MOA for 10 shots at 600 yards during testing.
3. Wind reading is the key to winning. I don't care if your gun shoots .1 all day if you can't read the wind you're not going to win.
4. The guys consistently on top have their system ironed out. Bag, bipod, rest, gun, etc. AND they can read the wind. Without the last part you got nothing.
 
I shoot F Class (FTR) 600 to 1000 yards. (308 off a bipod.)
1. My set up needs to print no more than 3/4 MOA at 1000 for 20 shots. That means NO vertical 9's.
2. My tuning goal is less than .5 MOA for 10 shots at 600 yards during testing.
3. Wind reading is the key to winning. I don't care if your gun shoots .1 all day if you can't read the wind you're not going to win.
4. The guys consistently on top have their system ironed out. Bag, bipod, rest, gun, etc. AND they can read the wind. Without the last part you got nothing.
Keep in mind a guy set an extreme long range record with an off the shelf savage, as you said, read the wind.
 
#1 Establish a process to tune
#2 Flags, flags, flags
#3 Clock on your bench...make use of the time you paid for
#4 Bench manners
Your list places tune above flags(wind reading). Is that how you feel? I think you soot short range mostly, like myself??? Part of the reason I posted this is for feedback sr vs lr. I'm gonna put something to together soon just to play with the long range crowd a little. A bunch of them are customers and I love them all...Just wanna get out and play with them a bit.
 
I shoot F Class (FTR) 600 to 1000 yards. (308 off a bipod.)
1. My set up needs to print no more than 3/4 MOA at 1000 for 20 shots. That means NO vertical 9's.
2. My tuning goal is less than .5 MOA for 10 shots at 600 yards during testing.
3. Wind reading is the key to winning. I don't care if your gun shoots .1 all day if you can't read the wind you're not going to win.
4. The guys consistently on top have their system ironed out. Bag, bipod, rest, gun, etc. AND they can read the wind. Without the last part you got nothing.
This is my general way of thinking as well. Thank you
 
Three years ago I dipped my toes into the UBR score world. Instantly was aware of the fact that money can buy some of the best equipment for whatever game ya play. No different than drag racing, tractor pulling, show horses or anything else. But after settling down and watching the best of the shooters battle it out all year something became very clear. Matches seem to be won starting at the loading bench. If you have a solid gun, load, rest system your ahead of everyone else who's dealing with issues in those 3 areas. The wind, well that's what they write all those books about.
This right here sums up how I see it pretty well, too! Thank you!
 
More opinions? Mainly looking for tune vs wind experiences. I know a 30mph wind is not the same as a 5mph wind. Hoping for experienced shooters experience, used to using flags and their findings but I'm open to everything, as each game is different. In some games, a factory rifle can win if the stars align...I get that too.
 
I can't comment on BR, or F class. But in ELR for me it's tune at 1200 and pray your figuring out the wind for the trip out to 3000.
That's interesting too. Thanks! I know tune matters at any distance but I would've thought tune is of less value as the yardage increases and no wind flags allowed or used at most elr events. Frankly, I would've bet most would say wind is most important of all with tune a close 2nd, but that depends on conditions. The further the target, I would've guessed that wind would be more and more the main factor. For instance, tune remains a constant...IOW, tune has the same moa value regardless of distance, where wind is a square root thing where wind has a far greater value as the target is moved further out. Thanks for your post. I'm taking all of it in as best I can.
 
More opinions? Mainly looking for tune vs wind experiences. I know a 30mph wind is not the same as a 5mph wind. Hoping for experienced shooters experience, used to using flags and their findings but I'm open to everything, as each game is different. In some games, a factory rifle can win if the stars align...I get that too.
Mike, define tune versus wind please. Are you referring to the BR crowd in this case?
 
More opinions? Mainly looking for tune vs wind experiences. I know a 30mph wind is not the same as a 5mph wind. Hoping for experienced shooters experience, used to using flags and their findings but I'm open to everything, as each game is different. In some games, a factory rifle can win if the stars align...I get that too.
This is a good thread that has the potential to get into some good content
SRBR for me
in my experience tune is first without that you can’t steer it
next and almost as important as the first comes the flags
it takes years to start to really see your flags and begin to see when to start shooting

One thing I can offer on the flags take the head or tail wind as opposed to the cross wind every time.
Wait for it as long as you can

another thought. wait for anything except the straight cross wind
 

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