wkdickinson
Gold $$ Contributor
Our sport is not for the “financially timid”!
Lapua center x ?
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What ammo Ken?
As implied in my question to VLNBYR above, I also see what I've been referring to as "flyers" in various lots of Lapua ammo. Since flyers are in fact relatively rare, it suggests one or several of the following possibilites.
- My barrel has flyer-inducing defects that cause more of them on average than better barrels.
- My ammo has more than expected "defective" rounds whatever their cause may be -- bullet, MV variation, or something else. It's unknown if it's possible some national (e.g. in Canada) ammo distributors don't always get as many good lots as others.
- My shooting skills are less consistent than desirable.
At the same time, I'll include this observation.
Printouts of testing facility results that have been reproduced online seem to show that flyers (shots with a POI outside the group) do occur without being rare. Furthermore, if they have any validity, the same can be said based on results from the Eley Lot Analyser when they were available. (By their very nature, of course, these observations are limited.)
Several years ago, when it was still possible to get 2-box samples of several lots of Center-X from multiple sources, I tested at least a dozen different lots of it before finding one good enough to buy in quantity - and then had to settle for buying half a case of the 2nd best lot sampled because there was no more of the best lot to be found at any of several dealers I called. And there was a substantial difference in the way my rifles shot with that '2nd best' lot. A month or more before this, I had also tested at least a dozen lots of SK Rifle Match, but in that instance, was able to find two cases of the best lot I'd found.
I still see guys talking online about shooting single boxes of various different brands & grades of std vel match ammo, and then reporting that "My rifle doesn't like such and such ammo." OK, so your rifle didn't like that lot# of whatever ammo you were shooting - it doesn't mean that a different lot of the same ammo won't shoot lights out for you. It reminds me of how much difference there was between the best & worst lots of several different brands & grades of match ammo that I've shot while looking for that one special, really fine lot of whichever ammo I'm testing. And even 6-7 yrs ago, if you'd set about lot testing very long after the last shipment of that ammo had come ashore in the U.S., you were liable to be wasting your time, because everyone else who was aware of the date of delivery of that shipment would've been busy lot testing and then buying as much of "the good stuff" as they could afford. It's a rat race, and really the only thing I don't like about shooting 22LR rifles - though it's great when you do find a really good lot for your rifle, and are able to score a couple of cases of it....and who knows if or when this current shortage is going to become a thing of the past?
I still see guys talking online about shooting single boxes of various different brands & grades of std vel match ammo, and then reporting that "My rifle doesn't like such and such ammo." OK, so your rifle didn't like that lot# of whatever ammo you were shooting - it doesn't mean that a different lot of the same ammo won't shoot lights out for you. It reminds me of how much difference there was between the best & worst lots of several different brands & grades of match ammo that I've shot while looking for that one special, really fine lot of whichever ammo I'm testing. And even 6-7 yrs ago, if you'd set about lot testing very long after the last shipment of that ammo had come ashore in the U.S., you were liable to be wasting your time, because everyone else who was aware of the date of delivery of that shipment would've been busy lot testing and then buying as much of "the good stuff" as they could afford. It's a rat race, and really the only thing I don't like about shooting 22LR rifles - though it's great when you do find a really good lot for your rifle, and are able to score a couple of cases of it....and who knows if or when this current shortage is going to become a thing of the past?
wkdickinson
Gold $$ Contributor
Last February (2022) I took my 1976 Anschutz 1413 to the Lapua testing facility in OH to be “lot tested”. We tested 16 different lots of CX and 4 lots of Midas, at both 50M & 100M. The rifle was tested “in-the-wood”, not with the barreled action in a test fixture. My primary interest was 100M, since two of our local clubs shoot 40-shot, 100yd matches monthly during the summer. We found a lot of CX that shot fairly consistently and produced nice, round groups:
The 21.92mm was measured “outside-to-outside” (see attachment). If you reduce that to center-to-center and calculate the result, it works out to be .561 MOA at 100M. That group was the best of the 3-4 groups we shot with that lot number. The rest were good, but not that good.
I bought a case of that lot number and have been shooting it at matches and in practice this summer. We shoot 10-shots each on 4 targets having a 1” 10-ring and a .5” X-ring for a 40-shot aggregate. While I have shot several individual targets with 100-point scores, my aggregates have usually been disappointing (high 380’s to low 390’s) due primarily to not being a good wind reader. But in most matches, I will have 2-3 shots that are totally “off-call” (a 9 that is almost an 8, or an 8) with no perceptible condition change – “flyers”.
I suspected the problem to be gun related. I found the firing pin was not moving freely and fixed that – it helped, I think. Then I found a bad spot in the barrel about 12” in front of the chamber. It was badly pitted and almost looked like it might have been and “inclusion” in the steel. How long it had been there I have no idea. So, I just sent it off to be rebarreled.
I also built a new RF match rifle (RimX w/Shilen “Ratchet”) this year and was able to shoot it in competition for the first time a week or so ago. The wind that morning was light to moderate, and I shot a 396-18X, good enough for 2nd place. I let my son shoot it and he shot a 398-20X, for the win. We were both using that same lot of CX. No flyers for either of us, the 9’s were just barely out.
The point of this long story is that I thought the flyers were coming from the ammo, but I’m not so sure anymore. It will be interesting to see how the 1413 shoots with the new barrel. That may tell the story, or not? But either way, I think this entire thread points out the multitude of unknowns that may result in a flyer.
The 21.92mm was measured “outside-to-outside” (see attachment). If you reduce that to center-to-center and calculate the result, it works out to be .561 MOA at 100M. That group was the best of the 3-4 groups we shot with that lot number. The rest were good, but not that good.
I bought a case of that lot number and have been shooting it at matches and in practice this summer. We shoot 10-shots each on 4 targets having a 1” 10-ring and a .5” X-ring for a 40-shot aggregate. While I have shot several individual targets with 100-point scores, my aggregates have usually been disappointing (high 380’s to low 390’s) due primarily to not being a good wind reader. But in most matches, I will have 2-3 shots that are totally “off-call” (a 9 that is almost an 8, or an 8) with no perceptible condition change – “flyers”.
I suspected the problem to be gun related. I found the firing pin was not moving freely and fixed that – it helped, I think. Then I found a bad spot in the barrel about 12” in front of the chamber. It was badly pitted and almost looked like it might have been and “inclusion” in the steel. How long it had been there I have no idea. So, I just sent it off to be rebarreled.
I also built a new RF match rifle (RimX w/Shilen “Ratchet”) this year and was able to shoot it in competition for the first time a week or so ago. The wind that morning was light to moderate, and I shot a 396-18X, good enough for 2nd place. I let my son shoot it and he shot a 398-20X, for the win. We were both using that same lot of CX. No flyers for either of us, the 9’s were just barely out.
The point of this long story is that I thought the flyers were coming from the ammo, but I’m not so sure anymore. It will be interesting to see how the 1413 shoots with the new barrel. That may tell the story, or not? But either way, I think this entire thread points out the multitude of unknowns that may result in a flyer.
@grauhanen
That was Center X. This is the last of six cases of Cx that I got last year. I have shot half of every case. First I tune and then I shoot multiple cards for score and statistics. There was no significant difference between any of these lots after I have a good tune. That needs to be qualified by saying no difference with me shooting my rifle. The only exception is that this last lot will throw a round out by four SDs or more about once in 75 shots.
Each session starts with me shooting SK Std, Rifle or Long Range. I am doing the same process with the SK. I think I've shot about four half cases of SK. None of the SK groups as tight as the Cx and the number of outliers is greater but none of them have been as wide as this one lot of Cx throws.
I still have six bricks of six different lots of Cx to shoot for these tests. They will be shot untuned. This winter I'll be shooting the remaining half cases up to compare summer to winter, that is 22-0C to 0 to -20C. Have some Polar Biathlon to throw into the mix too.
Special request, please don't anyone remind me how much this is costing me.
That was Center X. This is the last of six cases of Cx that I got last year. I have shot half of every case. First I tune and then I shoot multiple cards for score and statistics. There was no significant difference between any of these lots after I have a good tune. That needs to be qualified by saying no difference with me shooting my rifle. The only exception is that this last lot will throw a round out by four SDs or more about once in 75 shots.
Each session starts with me shooting SK Std, Rifle or Long Range. I am doing the same process with the SK. I think I've shot about four half cases of SK. None of the SK groups as tight as the Cx and the number of outliers is greater but none of them have been as wide as this one lot of Cx throws.
I still have six bricks of six different lots of Cx to shoot for these tests. They will be shot untuned. This winter I'll be shooting the remaining half cases up to compare summer to winter, that is 22-0C to 0 to -20C. Have some Polar Biathlon to throw into the mix too.
Special request, please don't anyone remind me how much this is costing me.
The lots that may have "flyers" shoot similarly with both rifles I currently have. Of course, it's possible that both rifles have flyer-inducing barrels. Except for the information given that flyers should be few and far between, it may be hard to know whether a poor group has flyers or just is what it is -- a large group.
Nevertheless, both rifles seem to shoot fairly well with certain lots of ammo. Some have produced ten-shot groups at 100 yards outdoors as small as shown by wkdickinson -- even smaller. As noted below, both rifles shot the best lots with good results.
This season I've compared six lots of CX that I got in the spring of this year. Although I haven't yet completed a detailed comparison of their performance (I'm still hoping to shoot more before it gets too late in the season), a preliminary assessment indicates that some lots are clearly better than others.
I did more testing last season, albeit with fewer lots of ammo, some of which I bought after lot testing late in the fall of 2020.
My best shooting lot of CX produced an average group size of just under 0.93" center-to-center over a total of 89 ten shot groups at 100 yards using two different rifles. The next CX lot I shot in quantity averaged slightly more than 1.2" in the two rifles over a total of 35 ten shot groups. I shot remnants of one lot of CX that produced a ten shot group average that was more than 2" in one rifle (a little better in the other) -- and it clearly had flyers and very inconsistent MVs as shown over a chronograph.
wkdickinson
Gold $$ Contributor
When I went to Lapua my goal was to find a "lot" that shot "great" in my rifle. I think in retrospect my expectations were wrong. Ultimately, I found a lot that shoots very consistently, and also shot well in my rifle - if that makes any sense. I say that because the lot I purchased shoots really well in my RimX. So I think my expectations were wrong. I was looking for a "lot" that "magically" shot tiny groups in my 1413. What I found instead is a "lot" that shoots pretty consistently in a "good" rifle.
That is why no sighter is left unshot. I don’t know how many times I’ve shot a great row and move down to the next and shoot a sighter and get a flier with no obvious wind change. It’s probably just chance, but I’m glad I shot the sighter.
Hi-NV Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
First off there is no way to know a good lot from a not so good without testing it. to say one distributor gets better lots from another is completely untrue.
As far as print outs from testing there are a lot of things that can happen to cause a rifle to not shoot a lot or lots good or even have fliers. how a rifle is tested can cause false results. for example- this 1411 was tested using the jig at Lapua CX #7164 had that so call flier as my notes explain why it happened.
same lot shot in the rifle as it should be produced a 9.52mm 10 shot group outside in natural conditions.
a lot of things you need to understand when testing one very important one is knowing the rifle/rifles you are testing so you understand what you are seeing from the lots being tested.
IMO this is why you hear stories of it shot good at the test center but now it doesn't.
Lee
Attachments
It's true that no one (at least those of us not involved in match ammo making) can tell a good lot of ammo from one that's not good simply by looking at it. I didn't suggest otherwise.
I said "It's unknown if it's possible some national (e.g. in Canada) ammo distributors don't always get as many good lots as others".
Your assertion implies that ammo manufacturer have no idea as to which lots they've produced may be likely to perform well across many rifles. In other words, not even the ammo maker itself cannot know what to expect in performance from certain lots, that as a result they are never able to set aside certain lots for certain distributors or customers.
For readers in general, as a point of interest to shooters, information about how match ammo is distributed, whether entirely at random or not, would be welcome.
JMayo
Silver $$ Contributor
I believe the company that makes ammo, here we're talking about Lapua and Ely.
I think they have a list and that list starts at the best and ends at the worst.
My beliefs are the sponsors of said companies get picks that we non sponsors do not get.
I know the deep pocket guys group together & buy 10 -15 cases, all of some lotts, then test, then sell off what they don't want. Keeping competitors AKA not their friends from being able to get a hold of the good ammo that they found.
This is one reason that I went centerfire after 10 years of shooting 22 only.
I've gotten some decent ammo many many times. But the ones on top seem to stay on top with ammo I could never find so consistently accurate.
I think they have a list and that list starts at the best and ends at the worst.
My beliefs are the sponsors of said companies get picks that we non sponsors do not get.
I know the deep pocket guys group together & buy 10 -15 cases, all of some lotts, then test, then sell off what they don't want. Keeping competitors AKA not their friends from being able to get a hold of the good ammo that they found.
This is one reason that I went centerfire after 10 years of shooting 22 only.
I've gotten some decent ammo many many times. But the ones on top seem to stay on top with ammo I could never find so consistently accurate.
Cannot speak to Eley relationships with their sponsored shooters, however for Lapua sponsored shooters (of which I am very close friends with two), they select their ammunition by testing at one of the two test centers. Their access is to the same lot numbers available at the same time as anyone else testing.
Note that at this time, Lapua is limiting test customers to a maximum of one case to ensure there is enough ammunition to be distributed to as many shooters as possible. Some may not like this, but others benefit with the anti-hoarding solution in place for the time being.
Even in the most difficult times with limited number of lots available, I have always been able to find ammunition that would put me on the podiums at state, regional and national levels.
I find it very humorous that the UK based shooters always complain that Eley sends the best lots to the USA.
Remember, no matter the test protocols used or number of different barrels/rifles by each manufacturer to grade their ammo, what matters most is how it performs in your rifle. There are a ton of shooters with Eley Match, Lapua Center-x and RWS Special Match that win high level matches.
Hi-NV Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
dgeesaman
Gold $$ Contributor
I see flyers using random lots of ammo. I don’t see them using my tested/selected lot.
The six inches low sounds extreme. How clean is the barrel and what gun is it? Have you stripped and lived the bolt lately? Is the firing pin in need of replacement? I suppose a severe undercharge is possible but it is extremely rare.
Lapua definitely tests their CenterX and sells the better lots to certain buyers and it’s called XAct and Midas+. Factory testing definitely does not guarantee success if you buy the XAct and Midas+. The good news is there is nothing sneaky about it and plenty of equally good ammo lots end up in the CenterX pile. You just have to test to find it.
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