Triangular cross section cassing dies?

[AustinM]

I just want to say that I appreciate the fact that conversations continue despite the thread being more than a week old. Over on reddit, you would get one smart remark, one comment using clever word play to turn your question into a sex joke one poorly written half-butt response. One really good thought provoking response and a bunch of hate. All of this would be in the span of one hour and then no one would respond if you asked questions, and by hour two the thread would be a ghost town.

 

[AustinM]

^^^^^^^^^ Take a moment and ponder about the amount of research and money that has been poured into the development of military arms over the last century. Between all the various nations, I’d bet it’s in the trillions of dollars. If there was a better way, we’d have seen it.

While that is true, it’s almost equally as true that procurement officers aren’t always gun guys, and that sometimes new things if produced on a similar scale would rival old things in price, sometimes it’s deemed not worth the expenditure.

 

[CJ6]

Another case study you may want to look at is the SMc series that McPhearson put out. It was a non-traditional bottle-necked case. Shorter and fatter than what would be considered "normal".

 

[joshb]

While that is true, it’s almost equally as true that procurement officers aren’t always gun guys, and that sometimes new things if produced on a similar scale would rival old things in price, sometimes it’s deemed not worth the expenditure.

Then do some googling for HK and the best German engineers attempts at building a better mouse trap. Worth a look. They’re some of the best in the world.

 

[357Mag]

Austin -

Howdy !

Nothing wrong w/ readin' up on various gun technologies.

As regards igniting the powder from the top of the powder charge columne..... take a look @ the
" Dreyse Needle Gun " on wiki. There are also images of the action in cutaway for viewing on
google images. This was an idea dating from the mid 1800's.

Paper wrapped powder charges were another route tried. One rifle example is the 1859 Sharps.
The breech sealed via use of a copper washer. I have read the the chamber could even be loaded w/ loose powder. If shot using this method, the rifle technically was using " caseless " ammo.

Looking at the progression in weapons technology to-date, it seems to me that the " caseless " ammo trend has been outpaced by advances in " case-telescoped " ammunition. This latter approach to providing ammunition reminds of some your project goals.... more compact storage for the cartridges; and perhaps increased cartridge " load out ".

Other:
SIG is offering their " Fury " steel base cartridge, touted as being a high pressure round.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[AustinM]

Then do some googling for HK and the best German engineers attempts at building a better mouse trap. Worth a look. They’re some of the best in the world.

I mean they made some serious headway with some of thier more recent designs, if anything I would say that the hk416 represents a local maxima, it may use standard cartridges, but maybe something better will come along.

You also have to consider the fact that the caseless rifle concept was going to be adopted but it’s price simply couldn’t compete with a massive glut of East German AK’s.

 

[AustinM]

Austin -

Howdy !

Nothing wrong w/ readin' up on various gun technologies.

As regards igniting the powder from the top of the powder charge columne..... take a look @ the
" Dreyse Needle Gun " on wiki. There are also images of the action in cutaway for viewing on
google images. This was an idea dating from the mid 1800's.

Paper wrapped powder charges were another route tried. One rifle example is the 1859 Sharps.
The breech sealed via use of a copper washer. I have read the the chamber could even be loaded w/ loose powder. If shot using this method, the rifle technically was using " caseless " ammo.

Looking at the progression in weapons technology to-date, it seems to me that the " caseless " ammo trend has been outpaced by advances in " case-telescoped " ammunition. This latter approach to providing ammunition reminds of some your project goals.... more compact storage for the cartridges; and perhaps increased cartridge " load out ".

Other:
SIG is offering their " Fury " steel base cartridge, touted as being a high pressure round.


With regards,
357Mag

That’s also quite interesting, it seems they aren’t the first to consider bi-metallic casings which could go a considerable way toward reducing the weight of the casing.

 

[AustinM]

Another case study you may want to look at is the SMc series that McPhearson put out. It was a non-traditional bottle-necked case. Shorter and fatter than what would be considered "normal".

Definitely, thank you.

 

[357Mag]

Definitely, thank you.

Austin -

Howdy !

The " 5mm / 35 SMc " case featured a hemispherical shoulder. The wildcat's designers coupled that case feature w/ a " short / fat " case.

Their idea was that primer ignition forces would be directed up through the powder charge and into the shoulder area, there to be reflected back onto / into the powder charge columne. This in some ways, reminds of other's attempts to ( in-essence ) ignite the all of the powder charge instantaneously ( my lack of a better explanation ).

Smalley & McPherson had their cartridge tested by one of Lapua's labs, claiming their case produced the best " Standard deviation and " Extreme Spread " numbers Lapua's ballistics lab had seen. They even showed a copy of the lab's print out in the magazine article I read.

There's a lot of wildcatting and experimentation that can be done using conventional brass cases; and then obtain superb results using the final product ( IMHO ).


With regards,
357Mag

 

[357Mag]

Austin -

Howdy, again !

Forgot to suggest for reading....... the " XM110 " and " XM645 " experimental .223 flechette rounds tested by the Army. See guns.fandom.com/wiki/5.56x57mm_XM645 or, search using the 2 XM designations.

This talks some about flechettes discharged using a sabot, and 2 different priming methods.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[Will Henry]

Daisy made a rife which used caseless ammo and no primer. I can't remember the name. 22 cal. IIRC. WH

 

[AustinM]

Austin -

Howdy, again !

Forgot to suggest for reading....... the " XM110 " and " XM645 " experimental .223 flechette rounds tested by the Army. See guns.fandom.com/wiki/5.56x57mm_XM645 or, search using the 2 XM designations.

This talks some about flechettes discharged using a sabot, and 2 different priming methods.


With regards,
357Mag

That’s interesting I thought the 5.56 was the army’s answer to flechettes. I remember reading about project salvo and how the 5.56 was basically viewed as an all around superior alternative.

I wonder what thier reasoning could have been for going that extra step forwards given everything they learned about even the 5.56 having wind drift issues, plus you really couldn’t carry much more 5.56 with light weight bullets than you could with standard weight ones. I like the idea of fletchettes on paper, but if it’s being fired out of a standard rifle case then you’re really passing up on the capacity you would need to have in order to increase your hit probability.

Edit: Oh wait, I’m getting my facts confused here.

 

[ebb]

This is not even the direction that anyone in the know wants to go. Why work on a triangular case when the holy grail of the gun industry is caseless ammo? No more wasted expense of a case, no more carrying the weight of the case, no more ejectors or ejection port.

 

[AustinM]

This is not even the direction that anyone in the know wants to go. Why work on a triangular case when the holy grail of the gun industry is caseless ammo? No more wasted expense of a case, no more carrying the weight of the case, no more ejectors or ejection port.

I mean you still need an ejection port of some kind to safe the weapon or in a high stress environment you need to be able to quickly eliminate missfires. Also, the most reliable way to prevent cook offs is to either insulate the hot chamber walls from the powder or pull the heat out with brass cases, unless of course you were to use a thin barrel profile and a water jacket ww1 style.

Come to think of it the juxtaposition of the new hightech hotness coupled with technology that’s older than the parents of the oldest members of this forum is hilarious, and would make for an interesting range toy, but I don’t think replacing the weight of the brass with water is the way to go.

Actually, what if you could get forced air cooling like with the Lewis gun and combine it with a water misting system and a thin barrel profile. Maybe the moving air over the barrel in conjunction with a little bit of water could work together to cool down just the chamber of the gun I’m sure that just the right amount of water squirted directly into the bore along with the outside being cooled at the same time could work to get the chamber just under the autoignition point.

But then how do you do that without too many moving parts and with the right tolerances, and could this system even work in inclement weather without icing over or creating mud inside the cooling jacket if dust gets sucked into it.

I guess the first place to start would be to try and research how much ammunition you would go through in a worst case scenario and determine how much heat would be generated and then calculate how much water it would take to keep the chamber at an operational temperature. I would have to mock up the cooling system I have in mind first to get an idea of how effective it is.

Ok, you know what this is all so complicated I think a better idea for quickly incapacitating bad guys is a drone swarm equipped with stun guns that can get in and zap people.

 

[ebb]

WOW

 

[AustinM]

WOW

I mean there are so many rabbit holes you could go down that at some point you have to make a hard decision even if it’s somewhat arbitrary and just make other decisions pivoting from there.