Triangular cross section cassing dies?
- Thread starter AustinM
- Start date
Deleted Dewey
It seems as though the biggest "benefit" to the triangular cases is the slight increase in magazine capacity due to the triangular cases being able to nest more closely together.
That added capacity isn't worth the effort that would go into the rest of the design.
Everything mechanical involves compromise. Bullets, cases, bores, pistons and cylinders are all round for good reasons, not least of which is "manufacturability".
Two examples of non-round thinking come to mind, one automotive (motorcycle actually) and the other firearm related. In the 80's Honda wanted more valve-area per cylinder than round cylinders would allow and were constrained by FIM rules to four cylinders. Nothing in the rules said the cylinders had to be round however, so they created a V4 with oval pistons and eight valves per "cylinder". In this instance, there was a defined need and non-round cylinders were a solution.
The other idea was the Dardick Tround mentioned earlier in this thread. This was a purely a case of an answer in search of a question, much like "ambidextrous" charging handles for an AR.
Long story short, the "wasted" space between round cases in a magazine is a vanishingly small price to pay, given the other benefits of the round case.
That added capacity isn't worth the effort that would go into the rest of the design.
Everything mechanical involves compromise. Bullets, cases, bores, pistons and cylinders are all round for good reasons, not least of which is "manufacturability".
Two examples of non-round thinking come to mind, one automotive (motorcycle actually) and the other firearm related. In the 80's Honda wanted more valve-area per cylinder than round cylinders would allow and were constrained by FIM rules to four cylinders. Nothing in the rules said the cylinders had to be round however, so they created a V4 with oval pistons and eight valves per "cylinder". In this instance, there was a defined need and non-round cylinders were a solution.
The other idea was the Dardick Tround mentioned earlier in this thread. This was a purely a case of an answer in search of a question, much like "ambidextrous" charging handles for an AR.
Long story short, the "wasted" space between round cases in a magazine is a vanishingly small price to pay, given the other benefits of the round case.
I think you’re right.
What about a modern day rocket ball style projectile made from a bullet with a hollow steel nose and copper driving bands and a lead tube in the back for weight kind of like a very low drag bullet and the powder could be inside the hollow nose as well as in inside the lead tube, and for obturation maybe it could use a pistol casing. Could something like that work to reduce the weight of the cartridge case?
CJ6
Silver $$ Contributor
From a Shooters/Handloaders point of view. If I can't adjust powder weights/types and bullet types/weights to go with the type of shooting I'm doing Hunting/Target it's not of much use to me. Then there is the barrel swapping part. Where would a person go to get a new barrel chambered and installed ?
Well I think that the bullet could come from the factory in different weights, but I don’t know that you could load too much extra powder into the projectile, I suppose you could use different powders and load less into the projectile. The barrel should be able to be cut and reamed with normal drills and reamers.
If you're wanting to make a groundbreaking development; how about electronic ignition? And, I'm not taking about Etron-X style electronic. I mean an ignitor integral to the case that doesn't need replacement every time it's fired. Like a spark plug for smokeless powder... Sure as hell not uber-profitable, but us handoaders will shortly canonize you.
CJ6
Silver $$ Contributor
In post #44 You say that powder would be in the bullet correct ? I would think that this would be classified as a rocket and barred from use at most if not all ranges and for hunting purposses. The main reason being the fire hazard this would create.
Deleted Dewey
In the gun world, there is nothing new, nothing. It's all been done before. Think Gene Stoner "invented" the multi-lug rotating bolt? Wrong. It wasn't Melvin Johnson either. It was G.V. Fosberry, in 1891, and used in a pump shotgun, with a box magazine.
Glock, the first polymer-framed double-stack 9mm? Nope, that was the VP-70 of the late 60's.
For that matter, the Glock's entire trigger mechanism is functionally a direct copy of the 1907 Roth Steyr, just made from stampings, rather than milled from solid.
Colt's Series 80 firing pin lock? Invented and patented in 1929 by a man named Swenson (I think).
Plastic-cased ammunition? That tired idea gets trotted out every generation, for the last 40 years.
No one is going to "revolutionize" the firearms world.
You want fame and fortune? Invent something useless that fits an M-lock rail and is bluetooth capable. The tacti-tards will beat a path to your door.
Deleted Dewey
That's been done before. It was called the Gyro-Jet. It also failed.
This is the problem with Millenials, they don't realize that things existed before the interwebz.
Back in my day, the internet was called books and research meant actually trying shit and !@#$%^-ing it up on occasion.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
If you want to reduce weight use a sintered metal bullet. Its been done, but it can be re-done. I carry them in my 9mm and a mag weighs less than half of what a mag full of ball ammo weighs. NovX and sinterfire are a couple examples
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Shh im workin on it
Takin' yer good natured time ain't ya?
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
No money man! Been 10yrs
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
Back in the 1960’s, Harrington and Richards developed a Gatling type gun for the Military that used a triangle shaped round, called a “Tround”. I think they called the weapon system the “hyvap”
the whole idea was achieving an extremely high cyclic rate of fire. The description of the sound of the thing firing was that it resembled a large piece of canvas suddenly being ripped.
By the way. When Casul first developed his 454 Casul, he used a triplex load to achieve the velocity he wanted out of what amounted to a 45 Colt Case.
Sometimes I feel like the younger generation thinks that because many of us are old, we are not very bright. A few days ago in a thread about barrel steel, a young poster stated he was taking classes in “materials” and then started making statements that were, to put it mildly, Bizzare. I corrected him on one statement, but did not want to come across as being rude.
I got the feeling he never Stopped to think that there are quite a few of us who actually have a thorough knowledge of many of these subjects because we have been doing this sort of stuff before his parents were born.
the whole idea was achieving an extremely high cyclic rate of fire. The description of the sound of the thing firing was that it resembled a large piece of canvas suddenly being ripped.
By the way. When Casul first developed his 454 Casul, he used a triplex load to achieve the velocity he wanted out of what amounted to a 45 Colt Case.
Sometimes I feel like the younger generation thinks that because many of us are old, we are not very bright. A few days ago in a thread about barrel steel, a young poster stated he was taking classes in “materials” and then started making statements that were, to put it mildly, Bizzare. I corrected him on one statement, but did not want to come across as being rude.
I got the feeling he never Stopped to think that there are quite a few of us who actually have a thorough knowledge of many of these subjects because we have been doing this sort of stuff before his parents were born.
Austin -
Howdy !
Textron is working on a current " case telescoped " 6.8mm ammuntion, and the rifle(s) to fire it.
I listed a link for it futher down the reading list, below....
A lot of what you are talking about, are things also being considered via use of " caseless ammunition ".
Additionally..... a lot of prototypes and ltd production guns designed to fire caseless ammo were " bullpups " to boot. Also, similarly..... polymer case telescope ammunition. Some reading references follow below:
For a good read, see Heckler & Koch G11 on wiki.
Better still, see forgottenweapons.com/caseless-ammunition-overview especially the included " slide show "
Tap on the first blue box of the show, to bring-up the sequence of " slides ". Read & view in its entirety.
* One slide in-particular talks about issues that will likely never be resolved ( at least for a MIL application ) *
Lot's of past history on weapons concepts like " base bleed " projectiles, " Gyrojet ", " Tround "; et al .
And, the guns that fired such ammo.
See also:
Caseless ammuniton images Google
* See also:
textronsystems.com/products/ct-weapons
Note efforts being made for a 6.8mm rifle, 6.8mm automatic rifle; and 6.8mm case telescoped ammunition.
This work is in-support of the " Next Generation Squad Weapon "
See also:
polymer case telescoped ammunition image wiki Note: illustration from HI-point firearms forum
Other data:
Hodgdons load data for a 24" 6.8 SPC shows that no bullet wt higher than 100gr could be propelled beyond 2,803 fps. That solitary load required a compressed charge of 30gr H322 powder. And as you noted, this amount of powder would not be indicative of a handgun-sized round; even for use in a " carbine ".
I am wondering about " bolt thrust " as a potential issue, were a triangular cross section case used ?
With regards,
357Mag
joshb
Gold $$ Contributor
^^^^^^^^^ Take a moment and ponder about the amount of research and money that has been poured into the development of military arms over the last century. Between all the various nations, I’d bet it’s in the trillions of dollars. If there was a better way, we’d have seen it.
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Ok that’s incredibly interesting I will definitely need to do more research into triplex rounds. Thank you.
Edit:
Good to know about the hyvap system and definitely worth some follow up.
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This is a veritable treasure trove of good solid reading materials, thank you very much for taking the time to point me in the direction of more resources.
I’m of the mindset that having more information is like having more tools in your toolbox. Sure you could probably get the job done with what you have but it’s always nice to have options.
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