Moving backers at 1,000 yards???

[Stan Taylor]

We’ll here you go it’s a bad situation that we have come to this in our sport.
But having said that how do you fixit.
Here’s my take clubs can’t afford to put backers in to correct the problem so I myself encourage shooters to color there record rounds with a different color on each one then it’s pretty evident on doubles.

 

[tom]

Larry, try this one, I set the aim point as the non credited hole so the color is less bright. All I know is this target wouldn't have required referees if I scored it. It's a measurable 2 shot group....right about .025" actually. My app is for measuring, I'm just using it for a retical, as I don't have the target and a real retical in hand.

Tom

 

[CaptainMal]

Larry, try this one, I set the aim point as the non credited hole so the color is less bright. All I know is this target wouldn't have required referees if I scored it. It's a measurable 2 shot group....right about .025" actually. My app is for measuring, I'm just using it for a retical, as I don't have the target and a real retical in hand.

Tom
View attachment 1324164

So you see that hole as a two-shot hole based on visual evidence or the computer application or both?

I am wondering why Tom Jacobs, Doug Bell and Tom Anderson were not called to review this target? It is something I directed our target crew leader and scoring team to do. They did not. They also did not mention until I asked, anything about the backer. My information is the backer got detached from the target. Makes me wonder. Hoping that none of them view this discussion, get offended and refuse to help in the future.

It is difficult to get and train others to follow recommendations while constantly trying to be both encouraging and tactful in appreciation of their volunteer and/or paid performance. This target - 4 or 5 shots, should have been reviewed. It was not and I knew nothing about its' existence until long after the match was over and we had enjoyed our awards and meal.

Here on the internet, looking at pictures of a target that has been handled/played with for a couple weeks, is not something we can firmly draw conclusions on. Remember, that computer thing is NOT available with a trained operator and used at the match. The target could also have been physically damaged from just the touching of inspection before these pictures were made.

Hindsight can make for bad karma. Sorry to see this but can only try to take measures that work to solve this problem into the future. The other option is to shut down completely and terminate our IBS 600 program. That is a definitive answer to stopping this from happening.

 

[tom]

No one should be offended, it's just a discussion, and so far some solutions have been made or are being made.....so a useful discussion at that. Who would've known that @Dave Way was such a trouble maker!

Tom

 

[newbieshooter]

Old post but of interest. Been using 1/4" coroplast 12 X 12" BACKERS at our 600 yard IBS shoots. Sticking them right behind the area of target center. Best done with the plastic, waffle-pattern in the center of the plastic cardboard. Regular cardboard and foam-filled cardboard does not work as well but can work a bit.

Do about 30 shots or so and then change them from behind the targets. On our last IBS shoot, Tom Jacobs had a four-hole target. Clearly four holes and a DQ until you looked at the backer. On exit bullets seem to yah and there sits two meplat holes on exit coming out the same entrance hole.

Target was then ruled good.

Highly recommend some form of removable backing piece to get a second look at exit holes behind the target. Just the paper can show perfect petal count and pattern but a backer can give you more information.

What distance do you have your coreplast behind the actual targets?

 

[CaptainMal]

No one should be offended, it's just a discussion, and so far some solutions have been made or are being made.....so a useful discussion at that. Who would've known that @Dave Way was such a trouble maker!

Tom

Hope not. I just sent Dave a check for some bullets.

There are some who think and have told me I recognize my butt when looking at a hole in the ground. Others are not so insensitive and I would hate to lose them.

 

[CaptainMal]

What distance do you have your coreplast behind the actual targets?

No distance.

Look at the main target board backer and figure out where the centers of the targets you are posting will go. Then put a single staple in the 12 and 6 o'clock position to hold a 12 x 12" 4mm coroplast backer there. Add your targets on top of it. No need to staple from the side only cause if one lets go, the backer then tries to swing down, dropping out of the center. You lose a 12 o'clock staple and the lower one seems to hold it in place ok.

If your target crew sees a problem, I ask them to stick two staples through the target and into the backer where it is not bothersome. Detatch the target and peel the backer off WITH the target. Leave it out of the pile and take it like that to the scoring table. That is what they are supposed to do. "Supposed to" can be a problem. I try to keep tabs on things with a two-way radio from the line. Sometimes that also is a problem as crew members mess up the channel, turn it off, forget it in the cart or I get busy and miss a call from them. It is very hard to try and shoot plus run the line and take care of mega details.

If the backer falls off you are still OK. You can see the target pattern in question and figure out where it lines up with the backer. Now don't get too many shots into each backer before changing. 30-40 is probably max, less if there's a tight cluster in the backer you see before posting another target over it.

You want to observe the exit ( BACK) of that backer where the holes in question are. That is what you read to see if maybe two shots did go through. Mostly the bullets wobble a bit on entry. I call it yaw. Most targets show multiple directions of bullet entry - if you look close. Well that backer shows the exits with a tiny teeny hole for each bullet. First time you see two teeny exit holes and a single entrance hole and you will know.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I think Jackie brought up a very good point a bit earlier about feasibility of moving backers. It may not be 100% but better target paper will help, too.

 

[tom]

I’m going to ask you a hypothetical question being that you feel there was five shots in that cluster and you were in Scoring shed how would you have scored this target.

I would have asked the range officer (quietly) why he or she got up and moved so far to the left before shooting their 6th shot. But no doubt, probably would have had to follow whatever protocol is in place for 6 shots on.

Tom

 

[Stan Taylor]

I would have asked the range officer (quietly) why he or she got up and moved so far to the left before shooting their 6th shot. But no doubt, probably would have had to follow whatever protocol is in place for 6 shots on.

Tom

It would be nice to have something similar to the guy in Florida that coreplast behind these targets to confirm exactly what transpired it’s getting harder and harder to measure these targets and give the shooters what the deserved for sure.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The ultimate goal in 600 or 1000 is to put them all through the same hole. As unlikely as that is, if it ever happened it would be DQ'D for only having one on lol. I don't think a moving backer is needed, but an electronic target just to count shots is not a bad idea if a club is seeing some real small groups

 

[Mulligan]

We had a group shot on Saturday that at first blush, looked like 4. Our Target Miester seen one hole that looked different...extra black and maybe a couple of thou bigger. He fetched the refs and after getting the scoring plate and magnifier out they all took a look. There was quite a bit of pontificating going on amongst the scoring crew/Refs, however, after some time, they all agreed that three of the holes it was clear only one bullet had passed through each of them. The questionable fourth, all agreed it looked like a double and they could see no reason to say it was anything different even though when placing the scoring ring over it, it was less than a human hair bigger than the other three.
In the end, the shooter was happy. The scoring crew can sleep at night knowing they did their level best.
This one was close enough I did not know how it would turn out.

Our target/Ref team had to look at another target on the next relay and it took them only a second to DQ the target for only having 4 on.

Electronic targets could take some of the consternation out of the decision process for sure.

I seen a little bitty 1000 yard group shot at the Rendezvous Match last year........ I do not remember the size but it was small. I think Zack shot that group.... @WSMNUT maybe he can confirm?
At any rate, the group was tiny and centered up nicely. I do not believe there was an issue with his group only saying that with groups that small, it is only a matter of time before we will need something to sort the fly sh*% from the pepper.

I am grateful for the dedicated bunch of folks that help with our matches for sure.

CW

 

[WSMNUT]

I seen a little bitty 1000 yard group shot at the Rendezvous Match last year........ I do not remember the size but it was small. I think Zack shot that group.... @WSMNUT maybe he can confirm?
At any rate, the group was tiny and centered up nicely. I do not believe there was an issue with his group only saying that with groups that small, it is only a matter of time before we will need something to sort the fly sh*% from the pepper.

I am grateful for the dedicated bunch of folks that help with our matches for sure.

CW

The group was 1.738” but none of them were close enough to touching where the refs had to get involved. I’ve been lucky enough so far that I’ve not been in that situation. I’ve seen it happen to some really good shooters and automatically think well they probably didn’t miss the paper all together because the other 4 or 9 are all centered up. 2 could be in the same hole, one bullet could have blown up or blown off the paper or they could have done like I did at the Rendezvous and only have 4 shots on because one round fell out of my speed loader and I wasn’t sure if I had shot 4 or 5 or where that round had came from.

 

[tom]

Clay, post a photo if you can, and DON'T TELL US which is the double. I'd like to put my money where my mouth is, lol.

Tom

 

[Mulligan]

Clay, post a photo if you can, and DON'T TELL US which is the double. I'd like to put my money where my mouth is, lol.

Tom

Let me see if I can get a photo of the target. I did not take one at the match.

CW

 

[Bc'z]

I would have asked the range officer (quietly) why he or she got up and moved so far to the left before shooting their 6th shot. But no doubt, probably would have had to follow whatever protocol is in place for 6 shots on.

Tom

Wouldn't looking at targets to the right and left of this one help to clear up where the 6th shot came from?

 

[JMayo]

View attachment 1323708View attachment 1323709
This is the top of the group ...
2 there or 3 ..

Nobody is touching this one !

 

[Bc'z]

Nobody is touching this one !

3, the hole on the right is elongated
looking at the amount of transfer and and petals.

 

[tom]

Nobody is touching this one !

If there's 5, you're looking in the right place I believe. But much tougher on this example. I didn't really like the paper to be sure about much.

Tom

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Gotta stop with the DQs. It hurts participation. And who cares if a guy puts 8 or 9 in there in light gun? Its not going to get smaller. If a guy loses count and puts 4 on give em a penalty, if they lose count and shoot 7 extras who cares?