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Moving backers at 1,000 yards???

Long range guys are shooting blind they are just attempting to form a group its simple with out feed back of which I feel is important. we don't question a gun when its shooting shitty and all shot are easy to record but a gun starts knotting up and all of a sudden all the shots didn't make the target.. strange for the amount of targets we shoot of which is a lot the discussion of did they all make the page is very small and usually there is a build up to help with final decisions that out way the physical effort it takes to manage a bunch of extra tasks pre match and post match. the discussion of how regular we are shooting small is a real one but not so small regular that its a deal breaker to need the assistance. when people start seeing there groups form like in short range you will be surprised at how many fifth or tenth shots magically don't make the target to support a small group..

Shawn Williams
 
Alex Wheeler said:
I have been scoring the targets at Deep Creek for a while now. A true double tap is extremely rare. If you study the target close enough you can find that double. I think theres only been one time and I got the refs and even the shooter to try and find it. The target I posted above only took a glance to know there was 5 in that wad. The electronic targets are getting cheap enough now maybe they can be used in conjunction with the paper targets only to verify the number of shot fired and make sure they were during the record period.
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Alex, the shot marker target system is pretty affordable for many of our shooters. As a matter of fact, we shoot F-Class on the systems owned by our shooters. Most of us see the shot-marker as an indispensable tool for shooting ladders and general load development.
I am not sure how the acoustics will work in behind the standard target system??? My guess is, it might need some distance for separation.
You are spot on though, they (the electronic target systems) work very well and may well be a great aid as groups continue to get smaller.

CW
 
Clay, one would mount the acoustic target system on the same frame as the paper target. Putting it behind would likely cause some issues. A standard F-class frame with a 'for class' BR target face would be used just like an F-class match.
 
Alex Wheeler said:
I have been scoring the targets at Deep Creek for a while now. A true double tap is extremely rare. If you study the target close enough you can find that double. I think theres only been one time and I got the refs and even the shooter to try and find it. The target I posted above only took a glance to know there was 5 in that wad. The electronic targets are getting cheap enough now maybe they can be used in conjunction with the paper targets only to verify the number of shot fired and make sure they were during the record period.
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I think they will become the norm, I am in the process of having one on every board at our ibs matches in the very near future, hopefully early summer. My plan is to use them to count shots only, there should be less headaches, I hope.
They will not be used for anything but my use at a ibs match, no sighter period, no looking at groups.

Thats unfortunate on the target above, that diffinitely sucks for the shooter to have just shot the littlest 5 at 600yds . It should have been a reshoot at least.
 
I can see this being a larger problem at 600 yards far more frequent, for those clubs with fixed target frames low to the ground and other means to zero a rifle changing targets out between relays should not disrupt calibration on the offered systems. those pits that rely on moving frames as well as record board being hung in a cease fire prior to a record string this is a problem from a calibration stand point, even if actual pits with a pit wall bunker style left frame stationary the next hurdle would be swapping record targets between relays as frames when up are about 11.5 feet. I know from participating in matches that our f-class brothers that use the system Soley have not made a match fool proof while using systems as the primary tool for scoring there are problems beyond just a glitch. there are problems that show up far more regular than the systems in place to date. I agree there are aspects that are very handy on a personal level and as a tool for documenting shots passively. extra set up time maintenance and breaking down a match as a result of more gear is a additional conversation for each club for sure.

Shawn Williams
 
Couple years ago we had a "spate" of four-shot targets. We had to DQ near all of them as the evidence in the target itself was more conjecture than evidence. Bullets yaw a bit on target entry and many single shots could be mistaken for multiple shots. I/we have see this often.

Since starting to use the backers in the scoring rings we still hav e had to DQ some shooters. They probably shot 4 shots, simple as that. In many cases we WOULD have done a DQ were it not for evidence shown on the backer.

Now it is possible, very improbable, that a backer could have a hole in it from a previous shooter or target. Then the same backer had the new shot in question actually hit the exact place the backer already had a hole in. That is possible and a good reminder to change the backers as often as is reasonable.

There are no guarantees we make the right decision. Stacking the odds in favor of a right decision is our goal. I really know, after testing started on this a couple years ago and multiple incidents, the backers make a mistake far less probably than just having a plain piece of paper to examine.

It is not wrong to try hard to get it right.
 
Im lucky I guess that I have never encountered intentional cheating or dishonesty in this game but I have heard stories. I like the idea of an agenda item to ban for life from the IBS any person found cheating intentionally. Most rules or laws would be unnecessary if everyone was honest. If some one isn't they should find a new hobby.

On a lighter note, I can highly recommend an ammo caddie that holds only the amount of record rounds needed. It takes some of the guess work out of "did I shoot 5 or did I shoot 6?" ;)
 
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Alex Wheeler said:
Im lucky I guess that I have never encountered intentional cheating or dishonesty in this game but I have heard stories. I like the idea of an agenda item to ban for life from the IBS any person found cheating intentionally. Most rules or laws would be unnecessary if everyone was honest. If some one isn't they should find a new hobby.

On a lighter note, I can highly recommend an ammo caddie that hold only the amount of record rounds needed. It takes some of the guess work out of "did I shoot 5 or did I shoot 6?" ;)
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6 shots-You cannot make your group smaller by shooting an extra round on target. I have often wondered WHY on this rule.
CW
 
That was a Dirty Harry quote lol. I really meant 4 or 5. But we have had guys find a loose round on the bench and not know if they shot 9 or 10 and end up with 11 on. The ammo caddie should be mandatory gear IMO.
 
Alex Wheeler said:
That was a Dirty Harry quote lol. I really meant 4 or 5. But we have had guys find a loose round on the bench and not know if they shot 9 or 10 and end up with 11 on. The ammo caddie should be mandatory gear IMO.
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Yep, I agree.
I watched my daughter shoot a sixth on target and get DQ'ed. She didn't take her record rounds out of the "Match" ammo box before the record period and close the box........ she was relying on memory.
The ammo caddie is your friend for sure.
CW
 
Alex Wheeler said:
That was a Dirty Harry quote lol. I really meant 4 or 5. But we have had guys find a loose round on the bench and not know if they shot 9 or 10 and end up with 11 on. The ammo caddie should be mandatory gear IMO.
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and "we" know who those people are before they typically shoot Lol in regard to not having enough on paper or to many. load the block count it 6 times and close main ammo box simple really

Shawn Williams
 
Alex Wheeler said:
I think at some point something will need to be done. Guys work too hard and put too much time and money into this to get shorted. I just noticed this the other day. Shot at the 600yd Nats in 2021. Potential world record, but with no backer or acoustic devices to know there was 6 on this one it was scored as 5. Would have been nice to know if that high shot was a shot by accident during the sighter period or a cross fire.


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I’m going to ask you a hypothetical question being that you feel there was five shots in that cluster and you were in Scoring shed how would you have scored this target.
 
Many shooters st Manatee got free "ammo caddies". Couple years ago I cut up a 2 x 4 ... some 3" wide and some 4" wide. That way you can use them to hold your front rest bag in position as you carry and store your rest. Take it out and place on the bench. I just put 5 holes in each piece of wood for the ammo. Did make some with 10 for 1,000.

Made a large batch and they were all taken. Made maybe 6 more and they were also gone. Did not finish them but saw some return all painted and fancy. It sure seemed to hold down the number of 4 shot targets and stop the 6's.

Alex is right. They are necessary as the mind is a fleeting thing that gets distracted ..... heh?
 
Larry,

Do you happen to have a picture, preferably front and back, of a target, or targets, that would have been scored "4 on" if not for your backer system? I'd like to see what we're looking at exactly if so.

Thanks,

Tom
 
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