Labradar vs Optical Chronos: Real World Experiences?

[JimSC]

This is absolutely correct. In benchrest, both long range and short range where we compete for both group and score, you must have high quality equipment and loading tools. You also MUST learn to be obsessively consistent in shooting technique, extremely precise in loading ammo, and tireless and systematic when tuning. Both buying the equipment and shooting the discipline is not a minimum wage hobby........

Never said it was, I replaced two barrels and went through more components than I want to think about when practicing last year. Well over 5K rounds counting CF and rimfire. Twice a week practice sessions weather permitting.

You imply that it is the cost of the unit that turns me off. Not true, I bought one about two years back. Lucky for me Brownells let me return it and refunded my money after I could never get it to function properly. As far as the the performance and I really do not think that they perform any better than optical units. I can get the FPS of a load off my optical, use it to dial the scope in for 600 or 800 and be in the ten ring first shot and that is all I need

BTW look at the records and see how many were set prior to 2017 , the year the Labradar released that are still standing

Group Records

internationalbenchrest.com

Records

internationalbenchrest.com

 

[INTJ]

Never said it was, I replaced two barrels and went through more components than I want to think about when practicing last year. Well over 5K rounds counting CF and rimfire. Twice a week practice sessions weather permitting.

You imply that it is the cost of the unit that turns me off. Not true, I bought one about two years back. Lucky for me Brownells let me return it and refunded my money after I could never get it to function properly. As far as the the performance and I really do not think that they perform any better than optical units. I can get the FPS of a load off my optical, use it to dial the scope in for 600 or 800 and be in the ten ring first shot and that is all I need

BTW look at the records and see how many were set prior to 2017 , the year the Labradar released that are still standing

Group Records

internationalbenchrest.com

Records

internationalbenchrest.com

Actually I wasn't thinking about you or the Lab Radar at all in that post. I was agreeing with @RegionRat about the approach to and cost of shooting sports--sorry for the hijack. However, now I have an excuse to talk about the Lab Radar......

The amount of records being broken after the Lab Radar is a really a red herring. It was introduced in 2015 and I think I got mine in 2016. I personally don't even use a chronograph when tuning at 1000 yds and that is a common practice in LR BR. I haven't seen anyone use one during a match. Any chronograph will work for working up loads for most any kind of competition, and they are all accurate. It's not the accuracy of the unit that is the issue.

I have had a Lab Radar just about since it came out. It replaced my second Oehler 35. My first chronograph was a Beta Chrony I got in 1997. In 1999 I got a ProChrono. I replaced it with on Oehler 35. I got rid of the Oehler and went to a Millennium CED II. Then I got an Oehler 35P. The I got the Lab Radar and haven't looked back.

I have shot at several ranges where a shoot-though chronograph can't be used because of the raised firing line. The Lab Radar fixed that without having to be hung on the barrel and change harmonics.

There is a definite learning curve to using the Lab Radar. I experienced many of the issues new uses report, then I learned how to use it. You do have to align it properly and you do need to keep it out of the muzzle blast from a brake. You also have to be mindful of the external battery connector. I don't use the app.

I found all the shoot through chronos I used were sensitive to sunlight and were also affected by muzzle blast. The Oehler was the best of the shoot through design, mainly because of the proof channel. Since the Lab Radar measures velocity several times it equals the Oehler in the regard. It improves on the Oehler in terms of portability, setup, teardown, and ability to use on raised firing lines.

 

[Ccrider]

Interesting thread for sure. I bought a Pact chrono and printed back around 2008. A pia to set up. I may have use it 5 times. Took 15 to 20 minutes to set it up. Bit the Bullet and bought a LabRadar 3 years ago. Sets up in about 2 minutes. Use it every time I shoot. With the add on trigger, the only time I miss shots is when I forget to arm it or my Velcro falls off. Zero complaints from me on the unit.
The Bluetooth is useless.

 

[RegionRat]

...I really do not think that they perform any better than optical units.

https://appliedballisticsllc.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ChronographChapter-Copyright-2021.pdf

Bryan has a Doppler radar on his Mobile Lab for velocity tracking. His write up predates the availability of the LabRadar, but his chronograph is the grown up version of the LR for lab use.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

An optical unit can perform perfectly fine in most conditions and be every bit as accurate as the labradar. Nobody is denying that. But if the light from the sun is at an extreme angle over the photo eyes, there’s no denying they will usually have issues. I’ve had about 5 different optical units over the years and every one of them no matter how expensive had issues in certain lighting conditions. I accidentally shot and killed one unit when I had a bullet come apart in my bore, and had 3 others fail me without any abuse or damage. Just quit working. Some lasted a long time and there’s nothing boy a short while. So it’s not like optical units don’t have a long list of issues. You can read endless reviews of failures and problems with every optical unit out there as well. But you probably won’t ever read about someone accidentally shooting their Labradar.

The other thing is ease of setup. An optical takes way longer to assemble and a align on the bore when shooting by yourself. Really big pain when testing different rifles on targets at varying ranges. Even when shooting the same target with different rifles, sometimes an optical unit needs to be re-aligned with the new rifle. The labradar is great when shooting at targets with varying ranges. I’ve shot targets at long range, but then quickly aim the labradar at a closer target for testing at shorter ranges with other rifles. Literally takes mere seconds to just loosen my tripod head and aim the LR at the new target and I’m up and running. The only thing that matters is that the LR is aimed at the target being shot. The rifle bore doesn’t have to be perfectly in the same spot like an optical unit requires.

The LR is awesome for prone shooting as well as bench and off hand shooting. An optical unit can be a real pain or sometimes impossible to set up for prone shooting if the tripod for the optical unit won’t go low enough for the terrain and shooting angle.

 

[JimSC]

I think I will just have to agree to disagree on this one, no use to beat the dead horse any more. For me the chrono is just a tool I use in load development three or for times a year at most and even then it is the groups on the paper that tells the true story.

 

[Fuj]

For me the chrono is just a tool I use in load development three or for times a year at most.

I use my Lab, 2 or 3 times a week, rain or shine. Advantage Lab Radar.
For the guys that shoot a cookie cutter rifle that needs little load work,
an optical maybe what suits them. As a wild catter, doing work with a
Lab is extremely efficient. No one unit will fill the bill for everyone.
The Lab is my personal choice, and would not go back to an optical.

 

[JimSC]

I use my Lab, 2 or 3 times a week, rain or shine.

Just out of curiosity why ?

Once I get a load that shoots well I concentrate on shooting it at distance. Endless load development at 100 yards does me no good at all. Today I will be going to the range and shooting 30 at 300 and 60 more at at 600. Three different loads for two seperate rifles that were developed months ago with and have had minor tweaks in seating depth for throat erosion as needed.

Today I will be concentrating on wind reading and form and the all important group size, not speed. Like a mentor of mine told me a few years back. Some people reload to shoot and some shoot to reload

Oh and as far as cookie cutter rifles one of my rifles is a .30 Major, another is a 6 ARC that I make the brass from 7.62 x 39 and 6.5 Grendel for. My other rifles have been assembled by me from bare bones receivers. Not the most expensive optics and rifle but good enough to shoot F class with. Still working on my HM cards but that would be me, not my gear

 

[Fuj]

Just out of curiosity why ?

Because, I can. Currently my wild cat work revolves around several
shortened versions of the 284 Winchester. I do all my own brass and
die development. Each cartridge goes thru many tests with varying
primers, bullets, and powders. I record every pull of the trigger, and
enter all data in it's own log journal. Part of my testing takes me down
to the Anderson Creek shoots to compete with them. Just ask Jeff Gates.
I show up with something different each match. That Lab helps me to
get my work done in a more efficient manner.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I think I will just have to agree to disagree on this one, no use to beat the dead horse any more. For me the chrono is just a tool I use in load development three or for times a year at most and even then it is the groups on the paper that tells the true story.

This thread is not only intended to convince you alone Jim. I’m just stating real world facts and truth from on my experiences as the OP of this thread requested. Can’t disagree with that. You are in the group of people who could not figure out how to get the LR to work properly and now you have a bad taste in your mouth. We get it and that’s fine. Let’s move on...

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Interesting thread for sure. I bought a Pact chrono and printed back around 2008. A pia to set up. I may have use it 5 times. Took 15 to 20 minutes to set it up. Bit the Bullet and bought a LabRadar 3 years ago. Sets up in about 2 minutes. Use it every time I shoot. With the add on trigger, the only time I miss shots is when I forget to arm it or my Velcro falls off. Zero complaints from me on the unit.
The Bluetooth is useless.

I purchased the remote recoil inertia trigger when I first got my LR just in case I had issues i read about in my pre-purchase research, but I haven’t needed it yet. I don’t have supressed rifles and haven’t shot rimfire on it yet so we’ll see. Standard mic trigger works fine on my rifles. At least the inertia trigger was pretty cheap and I have it if I ever need it

 

[Ccrider]

I purchased the remote recoil inertia trigger when I first got my LR just in case I had issues i read about in my pre-purchase research, but I haven’t needed it yet. I don’t have supressed rifles and haven’t shot rimfire on it yet so we’ll see. Standard mic trigger works fine on my rifles. At least the inertia trigger was pretty cheap and I have it if I ever need it

The inertia trigger allows you more flexibility in where you set the LabRadar. With it, you don’t have to worry about where the LabRadar is in relation to the muzzle.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

The inertia trigger allows you more flexibility in where you set the LabRadar. With it, you don’t have to worry about where the LabRadar is in relation to the muzzle.

I see. Then that trigger could come in handy for sure

 

[INTJ]

I think I will just have to agree to disagree on this one, no use to beat the dead horse any more. For me the chrono is just a tool I use in load development three or for times a year at most and even then it is the groups on the paper that tells the true story.

I think we all agree that it is always the groups on paper that tell the story. A chrono is indeed just a tool. I use mine more for hunting rifles that's really shot at varying distances than my BR rifles that are shot at a fixed distance.

For customer rifles, I find a good load at 100 yds, using the chrono to make sure nothing wonky is going on, then if they want I'll take it to a PRS range and shoot it to 1100 yds. When I have a decent load with an ES under 30, there is no issue dialing in the door and making hits at 1100.

Given most people rarely shoot past 500 yds, a load developed at 100 and a drop chart based on MV works very well.

 

[JimSC]

Because, I can. Currently my wild cat work revolves around several
shortened versions of the 284 Winchester. I do all my own brass and
die development. Each cartridge goes thru many tests with varying
primers, bullets, and powders. I record every pull of the trigger, and
enter all data in it's own log journal. Part of my testing takes me down
to the Anderson Creek shoots to compete with them. Just ask Jeff Gates.
I show up with something different each match. That Lab helps me to
get my work done in a more efficient manner.

ok that makes sense. It's what works for you. I would not call your situation typical.

In this mornings practice session I decided to shoot 2 shots from each load across the Magnetospeed Sporter into the berm just to double check the velocity. I think I paid like 150 for that thing on sale a while back, it lives in my range bag and seems to be accurate as heck. I was testing my Shot Marker at range the first time and wanted to make sure I would not nail the hub or a sensor with the first shot. Plugged the numbers into Strelock dialed in my scope and I was pretty much dead on the waterline first shot with each load. The magneto speed went back into the range bag and won't be pulled back out until the temperature drops. That works for me.

 

[JimSC]

This thread is not only intended to convince you alone Jim. I’m just stating real world facts and truth from on my experiences as the OP of this thread requested. Can’t disagree with that. You are in the group of people who could not figure out how to get the LR to work properly and now you have a bad taste in your mouth. We get it and that’s fine. Let’s move on...

As am I. A real world fact is the units seem to be finicky for a lot of people. I find it amusing considering my work history that you think it was all my incompetency that I could not get that thing to work. I could setup and maintain a three state network of telemetrics but the LR just kicked my A$$. Could it just possibly be that the unit itself could be buggy?

 

[Ledd Slinger]

As am I. A real world fact is the units seem to be finicky for a lot of people. I find it amusing considering my work history that you think it was all my incompetency that I could not get that thing to work. I could setup and maintain a three state network of telemetrics but the LR just kicked my A$$. Could it just possibly be that the unit itself could be buggy?

Could have been an issue with the unit. It is comprised of sensitive electronics after all. Sometimes part of troubleshooting a problem is working with people to effectively and efficiently reach a resolution. I’ve never read much of anything bad about labradar CS so not sure where things went wrong for you there? I’ve never spoke with Labradar CS, but I have had bad CS experiences with other companies in the past and it really sucks because you feel like you’re stuck.

I do a lot of research before I buy anything. l bought an aftermarket sight to ensure I was aiming the radar properly, I bought the inertia trigger just in case certain rifles don’t want to trigger it as well. I made sure I knew which settings were the most important to adjust properly for reliable operation. I learned how to set it up differently than what the manual states because I talked to people who have it figured out. Ordered a good battery pack to ensure the radar had full power at all times. Bought a good solid tripod that gives me a wide stable base. Purchased a good hard case with form fitting foam to ensure the sensitive electronics aren’t getting beat around and damaged during transportation.
And I did ALL this before I ever hit the power button for the first time. Since I did my due diligence on research and getting the proper accessories, I have had zero issues since I fired my first shot.

No doubt there was a lot of growing pains for people using the labradar when it first came out. And those continued for those who did not do proper research. But if a person puts in the effort and does enough research, there really isn’t any issue with the LR that people experience for which there is not an answer. Kinda like the guys who post every week asking “which caliber rifle for hunting deer” or “what’s the best hunting scope” or “which bore cleaner should I use”. All the information is out there and it has been for a long time now. Just have to look.

The one thing I know for sure is that with a properly working unit set up correctly then for me it has proven to be extremely reliable so far. It’s not even touchy to be honest.

 

[INTJ]

As am I. A real world fact is the units seem to be finicky for a lot of people. I find it amusing considering my work history that you think it was all my incompetency that I could not get that thing to work. I could setup and maintain a three state network of telemetrics but the LR just kicked my A$$. Could it just possibly be that the unit itself could be buggy?

Jim,

Maybe you are just cranky and old like many of us here, and you just don't want to mess with certain stuff anymore. I am that way with case cleaning. It seems to me that many folks fuss WAY to much in how they clean cases, and I just have no desire to take the time do all that anymore.

I DID have to fuss with the Lab Radar but to me it was well worth it.

 

[Dub]

The few times I need this data for F Class or other my CED works just fine. Had it for years. It only comes out occasionally but is quite reliable

 

[Jager]

I was an early adopter of the LabRadar, one of those who pre-ordered it long before production began. So mine is one of the early units. And, for sure, I experienced my share of growing pains in learning how to make it reliable. For quite awhile now my unit has been very reliable. And over the last few months it has been dead reliable.

My short list of LabRadar operating tips would be:

Setup:

1. Make sure the velocity range is correct. And just because the setting says "Rifle" or "Pistol" doesn't make it so. You have to set it according to the expected velocity. When I shoot light loads in my .45-70 Ruger No. 1, the LabRadar must be set to 'Pistol.'
2. Make sure the project offset is correct. I usually set mine to '12,' but that is dependent upon your physical setup.
3. One of the nicer options in the LabRadar is its ability to track velocity and energy levels at multiple distances (in addition to the zero distance - the nominal muzzle velocity). You can set whatever distances you want. I have mine set to capture 5 yards (SAAMI test distance), 25, 50, 75 yards, and 98 yards (because I want to capture the track before it penetrates the target.
4. Make sure you set the trigger level at the highest level that does not result in false triggers (Level 1 being the most sensitive; Level 8 the least) from nearby shooters. I'm fortunate to be able to shoot on my own property, so usually leave mine set at 1. On those occasions when I'm at a facility with other shooters, I'll dial down to level 2 or 3.
5. Make sure the Tx power is set to 'Standard,' unless you live in one of those countries which prohibit it.

Operating:

1. Use an external battery. Just do.
2. Capture data to an SD card; and make sure that SD card is not write-protected.
3. I use the internal trigger on the LabRadar. For 100% reliability in tracking, I have found that placing the LabRadar on a dedicated tripod, off the bench and physically in front of the muzzle, makes a big difference. I typically set mine 6-10" in front of the muzzle (with 'Project Offset' set to 12), 3-4" to either side of the line-of-sight, and aligned about midway along the LabRadar's vertical dimension. For a long time I used the flat bench mount that LabRadar sells as an accessory. That works pretty well, mostly, but I never found it to be 100% reliable. One because it's not always in front of the muzzle; and two because recoil impulse on the bench can sometimes introduce device sighting errors that go unnoticed.
4. Use a sighting device to aim the LabRadar! I give full credit to @Keith Glasscock for this one. Over on his YouTube channel he has a 90-second video which any owner of the LabRadar ought to watch (
   ). Keith demonstrates a $5 plastic Picatinny mount and a $35 Red Dot sight that, together, utterly transform the LabRadar. Keith describes them as a game changer, and I couldn't agree more. I was one of those guys who would step back and "eyeball" the slot in the top of the LabRadar looking downrange at the target. Thought I was pretty good at it. Not! Keith has links to the mount and Red Dot sight on his video, but here they are for anyone in a hurry... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0794Z2HL9/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and https://www.ebay.com/itm/Labradar-Sight-Mount/192988171767?hash=item2ceefdcdf7:g:H0UAAOSwGxNgcx~~
5. Pay attention to the signal strength meter in the LabRadar. It gives you critical insight into how strongly (or not), the just-fired bullet was tracked. If your LabRadar setup is new, arm the device while you send a fouler/sighter round or two. If you get 4-5 bars, you're golden. If it tracked the shot, but you only got 1 or 2 bars, don't jump immediately into that carefully crafted ladder series you loaded. Figure out first why you've got a weak signal.

The LabRadar has a learning curve and a few potential gotchas before it turns into the dead-reliable tool that it can be. Optical chronographs also have their own peccadilloes and their own learning curve. To me, wondering which one is "best" isn't nearly as important as simply choosing one, learning how it works, and integrating it into your shooting world.

Knowing the actual velocities your guns and loads produce is transformative in ways you probably can't even imagine.