.223 looking smarter in 2021 and beyond?
- Thread starter davidjoe
- Start date
Are Sinton matches a regular thing? Fclass rules? That’s very drivable for me. I’m curious what weight class bullet you’re favoring, for me at midrange at least, I haven’t yet been able to score higher going heavier than 80’s.
Edit: I just looked closely at Freddy’s email from the weekend. You and the .223 shot just a point below JasonP, a TR state (national?) champion, I’m betting with a .308.
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Man, those tipped moly VLD 90’s shot the best 5 shot 200 yard group I can ever hope for in the 10 mph healthy breeze. Two touching in the red, just really flat.
This is one of the new barrels, but a different rifle from the shots shown the other day, 100% old school, Harris bipod and REM 700 single shot, REM 40x style trigger, a .223 REM bolt that didn’t come with it, HS aluminum block 40-X stock, metal on metal. Lake City brass I paid 15 cents a piece for.
I have added significant weight to it by filling the blind would-be magazine hollow generously with .375 SMK’s, then DEVCONing those bullets into place. That and two sets of steel Badger rings (NF steel base bedded of course with that much weight sitting on it) and a big scope get it reasonably close to Fclass TR weight.
This is one of the new barrels, but a different rifle from the shots shown the other day, 100% old school, Harris bipod and REM 700 single shot, REM 40x style trigger, a .223 REM bolt that didn’t come with it, HS aluminum block 40-X stock, metal on metal. Lake City brass I paid 15 cents a piece for.
I have added significant weight to it by filling the blind would-be magazine hollow generously with .375 SMK’s, then DEVCONing those bullets into place. That and two sets of steel Badger rings (NF steel base bedded of course with that much weight sitting on it) and a big scope get it reasonably close to Fclass TR weight.
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I don’t know about Sinton but Stanton has monthly matches.
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No Sir Jason was shooting a 223 also and his son was shooting Jason’s 308 for the first time and also his first time shooting a f/class match and he stomped both of our butts.
urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
I doubled my next order of 223 and 223 ackley barrels. My Remington 700 prefits freaking shoot.
Longtrain
Gold $$ Contributor
Yup, pretty much outgunned, unless you’re running 90’s at “toss-the-brass” pressures IMO.
Way back when FClass was shot on the LR target before the FClass target came out, I shot my 223 at 1K. Actually did quite well, until the new target took the wind out of my sails and I moved to a 308 for FTR.
To quote a fellow shooter watching me shoot my 223 at 1K…
“It takes a brave man to shoot a 223 at 1000 yards”.
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Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
When I started in F-class, I was shooting a .223. I kept that up for several years shooting the 80gr JLKLBT out of a Krieger 1:8 twisted barrel. I made High Master at mid-range, but try as I might, I was never able to get past Sharpshooter at 1000 yards. I switched to a .308 with a 180gr JLK LBT and got expert then master in quick succession. (Then I got involved in match management and everything went to heck, but that's another story.
I agree that when the conditions are nice, it's hoot to shoot the .223 and you can score quite well. But when the wind starts to dance, that's when things go quickly from "Oh goody" to "Oh, booze and dance, AKA Whiskey Tango Foxtrot"
I view the BC of a bullet as the component that dictates the difference between the flight of the bullet in air compared to the flight of the bullet in a vacuum. As was stated earlier, gravity is a constant that acts on the bullet the same way every time, big or small, heavy or light.
I agree that while the charts say they should react the same way, the heavy for caliber .224 bullet will still be more sensitive to wind than the equivalent heavy for caliber .308 bullet.
Yeah, the bullets always stay point-on in the wind and a wind of 20 MPH is just an added component to the overall wind vector comprised mostly (almost entirely) of the onrushing air, but that just doesn't tell the whole story
I agree that when the conditions are nice, it's hoot to shoot the .223 and you can score quite well. But when the wind starts to dance, that's when things go quickly from "Oh goody" to "Oh, booze and dance, AKA Whiskey Tango Foxtrot"
I view the BC of a bullet as the component that dictates the difference between the flight of the bullet in air compared to the flight of the bullet in a vacuum. As was stated earlier, gravity is a constant that acts on the bullet the same way every time, big or small, heavy or light.
I agree that while the charts say they should react the same way, the heavy for caliber .224 bullet will still be more sensitive to wind than the equivalent heavy for caliber .308 bullet.
Yeah, the bullets always stay point-on in the wind and a wind of 20 MPH is just an added component to the overall wind vector comprised mostly (almost entirely) of the onrushing air, but that just doesn't tell the whole story
I think they do all pitch in flight at every increment on the way to an eventual nose down free fall, that would be especially susceptible to headwind.
There’s a bullet pictured near the top of the steel angling down like a 50 yard TD pass. I think it’s a 95 SMK at 600
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Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
I don't think I agree with that. The headwind will always be coming from the direction of travel. It's not like we are shooting in a 2000MPH wind coming from a single direction, the bullet's passage through the air is causing the "headwind." Also, I don't think a bullet runs out of steam and drops straight down, it's always keeping point on to the incoming "headwind" until and unless it has dropped out of warp and started tumbling because of the transonic stage. The angle of arrival is going to be very close to the angle of departure, usually measured in fractions of a degree of arc. (or angle if you prefer.)
I should say a head wind gust or “pickup,” as mentioned from the earlier post above, which would hit more than the bullet’s “frontal” surface.
In the picture, a headwind pickup “gust” toward the bullet that is maybe at 40?degrees to the ground (original video by 4AW, ELR distance), will “see” and increase pressure on its front and its “top”. (If you looked at that bullet still frame from in front of it, you wouldn’t see a circle but more like a vertical rectangle). That’s a bigger shape (much lower BC wrt a headwind gust) more surface area to act on...
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Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
Yeah, I don't think that's how it works. The incoming headwind is say 2000 FPS about 2/3 of the way downrange. (I should pull up a JBM chart, but I'm just talking here.) That's 2000 fps coming straight at the bullet. A little actual head wind of 10 MPH or 15FPS will just be blended into the oncoming headwind as a little component that will barely change the overall headwind. This will cause the bullet to slightly alter its trajectory into the added headwind. It's not like this wind component is pushing the bullet sideways.
I think we are talking about slightly different things. I’m just saying that I think a bullet approaching the target on a pronounced downward arc is affected more by a frontal pressure change than a bullet on a flatter trajectory going straight(er) into it.
I’m not certain of it. I just look at it this way. If you were to suspend two identical bullets by threads in the calm and hit them both with the same 20 mph frontal gust, but one bullet is pointed into the wind and the other is tied unbalanced so as to be canted downward, I think the wind grabs the canted bullet more, and pushes in backward, further, for the reason that it presented more surface area and therefore resistance to the wind.
Same result if the gust hit the bullets on the way up instead of down; the bullets requiring more arcing would present more resistance, on the front and bottom instead of the front and top.
I’m not certain of it. I just look at it this way. If you were to suspend two identical bullets by threads in the calm and hit them both with the same 20 mph frontal gust, but one bullet is pointed into the wind and the other is tied unbalanced so as to be canted downward, I think the wind grabs the canted bullet more, and pushes in backward, further, for the reason that it presented more surface area and therefore resistance to the wind.
Same result if the gust hit the bullets on the way up instead of down; the bullets requiring more arcing would present more resistance, on the front and bottom instead of the front and top.
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Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
@davidjoe I'm sure you are correct; we are probably talking at cross purposes.
Let me just say that your example simply does not apply. You cannot compare what happens to a bullet suspended on a string to one that is spinning at a couple hundred thousand RPMs and is travelling supersonically.
And I would love to discuss this with you at the next monthly match. We really could go down a rabbit hole.
Let me just say that your example simply does not apply. You cannot compare what happens to a bullet suspended on a string to one that is spinning at a couple hundred thousand RPMs and is travelling supersonically.
And I would love to discuss this with you at the next monthly match. We really could go down a rabbit hole.
Warren Dean
Team Savage F-TR
I’m waiting for Otis’ other shoe to fall on my .223 aspirations
. Not only did two excellent TR shooters scientifically validate their .223 scores in the wind being just point apart, but it’s going to turn out that after Jason’s son’s first Fclass match ever, where he .308’d them all proper-like, at midrange, Jason discovered on their drive home his now-empty box of Federal Gold Medal Match 168’s on the front seat floor and gets told by junior, yeah I started using these when it got windy because it was easier to close the bolt handle on them and I wanted to watch the flags. I just held up higher the whole time so I didn’t mess up your zero, hope that was ok.
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I promised not to share until we get them dialed in with the new bullet and chamber combo, but EC’s method of “dimpling” the base of the bullet(see his video) has a lot to do with the improved wind deflection mitigation we experienced in the tough winds of West Texas. I was really impressed with our vertical dispersion at 600 and what a joy to shoot. As for my son, He shot lights out in his first competition, first time behind my 308 with 200gr bullets, and did it in a solid 15-20 wind all day. That gun is a hammer and he was only 1x off the top Open shooter.. and leaving the range he said “What’s the big deal old man?” .... If the next thing you say is that you and Jason shot 90’s at 2,950 FPS and both your guns shoot 1/32 moa groups at 200 yards my last daisy will wilt.
He sure did shoot outstandingly well, a natural with the .308, and yep that one’s the match that will always be remembered along with the family ranking. Good thing he was an X off open, so those guns will make some sense to him. I remember being very happy about winning an open match out there, except PJ would have won open if he had entered his .308 in it, instead. Maybe he needs to now have to shoot a .223
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