When You SHOULD Neck Size

[Gabe22BR]

I only neck size after I pull a bullet.

 

[BoydAllen]

One of the issues here is people thinking that what is true for their equipment is universal. If the OPs rifle likes neck sizing better than FL my first question would have to be what FL die, and what is it doing to fired cases? Secondly, I would want to know how he is setting the FL die, and last of all, how hot his loads are. This gets back to a long held belief of mine. Do your own testing, and believe your results. Just understand that just because you have discovered the truth for your equipment, it may not be the same for a different rifle, load or die.

 

[dellet]

This thread has bugged me all day, and I'm ready to throw the BS flag.

I don't think I could seat the same primer in the same piece of brass 350 times and only have a +/- .0005" variation. Probably couldn't get that little variation measuring the same piece 350 times, never mind 350 different combinations.

Throw a hamfisted troglodyte a bone and tell me how you're measuring this and what tools?

 

[wkdickinson]

If you want to not have issue with chambering or extraction you full-length resize. Remember, you are not just bumping the shoulder back, you are squeezing the "base" of the case back toward the spec, when you FL resize. Frankly, I don't care what everyone else does, from hard learned experience, I FL every time.

 

[K22]

K22 I would not say my neck size loads in 223 shoot any better than FL size, only more consistent measurements, both shoot well. Doing this for competition begining 2016 I have not experienced any problems at all. I would say the 223 is obviously a special case; and one intent of the post is to try different things yourself to find out what works best. I FL size everything else, and if it was better in the 223 would switch it as well.

Whatever works for you is the appropriate answer for you. If NS floats your boat go for it. It didn't work too well for me from a functionality standpoint that's why I switched to FL many years ago. I'd much rather just NS if it worked for me because it's less time consuming and easier but reliability as well as precision is just as important to me and I wasn't getting reliability with NS.

I don't know if the 223 Rem is any more special than any other standard non-belted magnum case but the least time I spend at the loading bench the better I like it. Some guys like to experiment and that's great, it's a hobby and what is one man's treat is another man's poison. Me, I'd rather be shooting or hunting than reloading so I try to simplify it as much as possible.

I had a good friend who loved to experiment with different powders / bullets / etc. He had no desire to hunt or compete, just shoot off the bench and shoot tiny groups. By the way, he was the neck size club. He was quite good at it too. One size doesn't fit all in this game. It's whatever gives your joy and satisfaction. Best wishes.

 

[JayHHI6818]

Saw this about a month ago.

 

[Patriot007]

I can

I’ll try but not 100% sure what your asking.
let’s say you only neck size,.... let’s say you have some you have loaded with 40 gr of powder som with 42,44, etc.... let’s say some have 105’s and some 115’s let’s say some are at jam and some are .060 off the lands that brass will be inconsistent!... some will chamber hard or not at all and some might go in easily,.... right?.... that’s inconsistency if,.... if you full length size every time it’s consistent. When I’m competing at 1000 yards I pray hard every guy on the line neck sizes!... unfortunately none of them do haha
Wayne

I always thought the term, Neck size, referred to the Reloaders that are using bushing dies with the bushings in them to reduce the out side diameter, and set their neck tension. That method of sizing necks is referred to as, "They Neck size." As for the rest of us, Who are using Collet dies and Expanding Mandrels to set neck tension. The term FLS in my case, only mean that I am using a Forster FLS die with the expander and the whole top half of the die removed. All that it touches is just below the shoulder and bumps my shoulder back 0.0020. and reduce the case neck diameter. I was doing that with the Redding Body die, Then I bumped the shoulder back with a Forster Bushing Bump die, with the top half and the bushings removed..(.0020) Then I used the Lee Collect die to reduce the case neck diameter. Then Expand the case neck with a 21Century expanding Mandrel.
I'm on the down side of a 2 month experiment with these 2 methods and I will say this. Test it for your self if you want too, I suggest that you do. My finding are that the Full Length sizing verses Fire Formed comes down to this. Apples and Orange's, They both taste great and make a great fruit salad. I wasn't having a problem with case neck run out or bullet run out or POI on target with the Fire Formed method. The FLS method is a more consistent and quicker way of getting to the same point in the process. One die, with excellent case neck run out after the case neck is reduced before expanding is .0005. After expanding the case neck run out is .0003. WIN,WIN, One die, One down stroke with the handle on the press and I'm off to the next case. I was getting single digit SD's with my fire formed method, And I'm seeing that the same holds true to the FLS method also. So for me, it's a no Brainer, I FLS, but I still believe in the end game.,, It's up to the Reloader. Let'em test it for their self.

 

[Tokay444]

What tool are you using to be able to measure to +/-.0005” accuracy?

 

[Patriot007]

What tool are you using to be able to measure to +/-.0005” accuracy?

My Mics are Mitutoyo 0.00005 and a K&M 60* Beveled Mitutoyo is 0.0001 My Caliper's are Mitutoyo Absolute, 0.0000, My concentricity gauge is a Neco with a Gem auto gauge .0005 I have a few other ones but these are my main ones. Nothing special just accurate measuring sticks and I have them calibrated ounce a year just to keep every thing in tune with one another. Can't you tell by now that I'm OCD or CDO as one forum member put it lol

 

[milboltnut]

0.00000 ? So .000 isn't good enough? And after 5 different dies, you went back to a standard FL die? I'm glad I don't have that kind of money ! LOL Someone gave me Hornady H&S, and OAL comparator gauges. Also a RCBS case master set up without the gauge. Are ebays gauges ok for the case master?

 

[Tokay444]

I meant OP, but I see the head space comparator is mounted to the digital caliper. Digital, dial, Vernier, they’re all only good to, and used for +/-.002” accuracy. The nature of the tool’s design does not loan itself to such minute measurements. And that’s just what their certificates of calibration and accuracy say. Add in the human aspect of using a caliper and you can squeeze .040” out of sometime you don’t like the size.
Anyone under the misconception that they can measure their headspace to +/-.0005” repeatably and accurate should re-evaluate.

 

[Richard Coody]

Only time I only size necks is until my brass is fully fireformed. After that I use a full length die set up for minimal shoulder bump.

 

[CharlieNC]

Guys I observe all the problems that you suggest on all other cartridges that I load for so they are FL sized.

BUT on my 223 FTR for five years and two barrels none of these issues has arisen after extensive testing and measurement, which I find interesting. Based on shooting thousands of problem free rounds you can either choose to consider this as a valid observation or not as I am not trying to make anyone adopt this method, especially any other cartridge. Just keep an open mind in the future.

Regarding the validity of the measurements, statistics teaches:
Variance (Measured) = Variance (Brass) + Variance (Measurement Error).
So the measurements include the error due to measurement, meaning the brass is more consistent than reported. So my reported .001" HS extreme spread means the brass is actually less than this. This compared to my FL sizing which is typically in the .003" range.

 

[Tokay444]

Guys I observe all the problems that you suggest on all other cartridges that I load for so they are FL sized.

BUT on my 223 FTR for five years and two barrels none of these issues has arisen after extensive testing and measurement, which I find interesting. Based on shooting thousands of problem free rounds you can either choose to consider this as a valid observation or not as I am not trying to make anyone adopt this method, especially any other cartridge. Just keep an open mind in the future.

Regarding the validity of the measurements, statistics teaches:
Variance (Measured) = Variance (Brass) + Variance (Measurement Error).
So the measurements include the error due to measurement, meaning the brass is more consistent than reported. So my reported .001" HS extreme spread means the brass is actually less than this. This compared to my FL sizing which is typically in the .003" range.

What are you using to measure a .001” extreme spread on HS?

 

[CharlieNC]

What are you using to measure a .001” extreme spread on HS?

Hornady comparator on a digital caliper. My technique is to insert case, then apply pressure and rotate the case until visually it is plumb and the reading is stable. Practice on one case until consistent results are achieved.

 

[Tokay444]

Hornady comparator on a digital caliper. My technique is to insert case, then apply pressure and rotate the case until visually it is plumb and the reading is stable. Practice on one case until consistent results are achieved.

That’s the standard accepted practice, but the tool itself is not accurate enough to tell you what you think it’s telling you. You could have anywhere from an ES of 0.0” to .005” using a digital caliper.

 

[CharlieNC]

That’s the standard accepted practice, but the tool itself is not accurate enough to tell you what you think it’s telling you. You could have anywhere from an ES of 0.0” to .005” using a digital caliper.

My reproducibility is .0005" when measuring the same case numerous times. I have never measured anything (HS, length, neck dia, etc) which was as poor reproducibility as .005.

 

[Torg]

Hornady H&S kit. Works great !

Part #?

 

[Tokay444]

My reproducibility is .0005" when measuring the same case numerous times. I have never measured anything (HS, length, neck dia, etc) which was as poor reproducibility as .005.

The tool’s own calibration certificate has a greater margin of error than you’re claiming. This standard machinist knowledge. You don’t use a caliper for anything under +/-.002” expectation of accuracy.

 

[Patriot007]

0.00000 ? So .000 isn't good enough? And after 5 different dies, you went back to a standard FL die? I'm glad I don't have that kind of money ! LOL Someone gave me Hornady H&S, and OAL comparator gauges. Also a RCBS case master set up without the gauge. Are ebays gauges ok for the case master?

Well, I, lol, in the beginning over 20yrs ago I made the mistake of buying cheap inferior nock offs and the usaul name brand like RCBS, HORNADY, FRANKFORT ARSINAL, ECT. And just about every scale under $200.00. I COULD Wright review articles all day long on why not to buy them. I got tired of wasting my money on cheap tools that promised they could deliver but when measured they come up short. When your measuring cracks of sun light it helps if your tools can read it. (Resolution, 0.00000 or 0.0000). I've used less quality mics and calipers and reloading tool of that quality and that's where I made my biggest mistake in reloading. I bought cheap tools hoping that they would be as good as the more expensive ones. I know how it is when you start out and you have nothing.
My first precision single stage press was a Lee $37.00 C press. I think, that gives me the right to say I started at the bottom. And yes, my first set of scales was a Lee safety balance beam. My first digital scales was the FA pocket scales. That was over 20 years ago. Over the last 18yrs I have been upgrading my equipment and hand tools and loving every second of it. The main thing is. If your happy with your tools,, Great.