To anneal or not to anneal, that is the question.

[Big_Daddy]

Exact same load data
Shot on the same day
10 rounds fired at 200 yards
Only difference was annealed vs unannealed

BTW....this a 223

Keep in mind that these are my results......your's may vary

 

[Ol Thumper]

Exact same load data
Shot on the same day
10 rounds fired at 200 yards
Only difference was annealed vs unannealed

BTW....this a 223

Keep in mind that these are my results......your's may vary

With results like that it’s hard to argue it’s not worth it. Thanks for sharing your results Big Daddy,

 

[JimSC]

Keep in mind that these are my results......your's may vary

indeed they do. Same rifle,same load on different days.

Picture one was 10 rounds shot at 835 yards. Shot on a 600 yard F class target, ten ring is 6 inches in diameter for reference. Nice group for me at about .75 MOA including one lowest. The other 9 shots were just at .5 MOA Cases never annealed and have mixed firings, some less than ten and some more than ten. This is the target that got me started thinking about starting to anneal again. My problem was I was getting one or two odd flyers out of the main group every match so I ran a test. Second pic is same rifle, same load at 300 yards. Far left and middle were shot with cases that had been annealed, necks lubed with graphite befor seating and checked for concentricity. The group on the far right was not annealed, not lubed, not checked.

I have to think we induce our own bias in these tests. The placebo effect is a very real thing, it has been documented many times. Regardless I have gone back to annealing with a Annealeeze and the vertical flyers have disappeared. It's not that big of a deal and I picked up a couple of points last match compared to what I had been shooting. Whether that is just a placebo due to confidence in the gear or the some physical result of annealing I cannot say

 

[1shot]

Paula,
If you send me your brass, I'll do it at no charge to help out you and your son. The only thing I ask, is you pay it forward to someone else, when the opportunity presents itself.

Lloyd

 

[MGMIAM]

LLoyd
I can attest that Paula does indeed (Pay it forward ) she was very kind and thoughtful to send my nephew suffering with cancer a medallion that her son uses to shoot with. Someone who really cares

 

[Dgd6mm]

Lloyd cudo's to you sir. Now, y'all are going to make me use my annealed more often.

 

[Webster]

I know we have a reloading question area, but I was reading there questions, and suddenly I thought I was back in HS French class, and I hadn't studied. My son got his first reloader (Lee), for his birthday. We were talking about annealing and if he was going to do it. I had a 10 min chemistry class on the properties of brass John said he thought it was a good idea, but couldn't afford an annealer, and wondered if the torch method would work. So guys do you anneal, why or why not, and how do you get an even heat with a torch, the only thing we have to do the job. Thanks.

Paula

Use the search tool. There are a 1000 post on this subject. I use a torch and rotate the case with a case holder for a neck turner.

 

[Ol Thumper]

I’m not wanting to hijack this thread but being it pertains to annealing I’d like to ask everyone’s opinion on how many firings you are getting out of your brass annealing it on a regular basis?

 

[rwj]

I’m not wanting to hijack this thread but being it pertains to annealing I’d like to ask everyone’s opinion on how many firings you are getting out of your brass annealing it on a regular basis?

I’m nearing 40 times with Lapua 6Br cases, primer pockets on some cases are now starting to get loose...

 

[Straightshooter1]

I know we have a reloading question area, but I was reading there questions, and suddenly I thought I was back in HS French class, and I hadn't studied. My son got his first reloader (Lee), for his birthday. We were talking about annealing and if he was going to do it. I had a 10 min chemistry class on the properties of brass John said he thought it was a good idea, but couldn't afford an annealer, and wondered if the torch method would work. So guys do you anneal, why or why not, and how do you get an even heat with a torch, the only thing we have to do the job. Thanks.

Paula

Using the "torch method" works just fine. But, it takes a little practice to get your technique worked out for consistent results. If you have, or can pick up some range brass, to practice on, then you're less likely to ruin any good brass that you'll want to use. It doesn't matter how you anneal or what machine you might get to do your annealing, it'll take a little practice to get things set up right for the results you want.

I use an Annealeez machine and it works quite well for me . . . after doing a little tweaking to get it to do what I wanted. For example, with this machine there was a little issue with how it turned the cases, which was easily solved with a slight adjustment to a flange that the case rested against when being turned. Then also, I didn't feel I was getting a uniform enough anneal around the whole circumference with a single pencil flame head that came with the machine. So I replaced it with a swirl flame head that better distributes the heat and with a minor adjustment to that angle the flame was on the neck, I now get the uniform anneal I like to see.

The reason I anneal is that in my testing the difference, like others have shown here, was significant enough to warrant incorporating it into my regular case processing routine. So, now the first step I do every time I process my brass is to anneal them. In doing so, I get very consistent results from the sizing of the brass along with more consistent seating and concentricity, which is why it shows up on paper at distance.

As with various case tuning procedures, whether or not its worth doing is really depending on the kind of shooting one intends on doing. For a great many shooters, it's likely just a big waist of time. For others, it's a key element in getting good consistent results.

Here's a article that from Annealing Under The Microscope on the AMP annealing website that you might find of some interest if you really want to get into some of the details:

Induction Annealing Case Necks | See Our Research | AMP

View the latest articles from AMP Annealing. Get tips and tricks from our R&D. Here we upload articles to provide your the best possible information on innovations in the annealing process.

www.ampannealing.com

 

[JimSC]

I’m not wanting to hijack this thread but being it pertains to annealing I’d like to ask everyone’s opinion on how many firings you are getting out of your brass annealing it on a regular basis?

I have never split a neck whether annealed or not annealed. Primer pockets generally go south somewhere in the teens though. I have some .308 Lapua with the small flash hole that had over 25 firings when I stopped shooting .308 that had never seen a annealer.

As far as the articles on the AMP website go, do you think AMP would ever publish anything negative about their machines or the process ?

 

[Straightshooter1]

As far as the articles on the AMP website go, do you think AMP would ever publish anything negative about their machines or the process ?

By the same token, do you think so many people (particularly, high level shooters) would continue to do it if they didn't have positive results from the process?

 

[rijndael]

By the same token, do you think so many people (particularly, high level shooters) would continue to do it if they didn't have positive results from the process?

Yes. Confirmation bias is real.

Plus, they could have upgraded just to remove that nagging doubt created by not having "the very best."

 

[Straightshooter1]

Yes. Confirmation bias is real.

You're right . . . it's very real. This is why peer review is such an important part of the scientific process to help filter that out. And as with all science, it's always open to question.

 

[JimSC]

By the same token, do you think so many people (particularly, high level shooters) would continue to do it if they didn't have positive results from the process?

the question is are the results due to the annealing or just a placebo effect. One the things that competing has taught me is that the mental attitude has a great deal to do with the performance. There are a great many books written on the subject and one of my favorites is

With Winning In Mind-3rd Edition​

The placebo effect is also very real and has been documented since the 1930's. It is why a proper scientific experiment is performed not only blind but double blind. There have been studies where the patient has been told the medication was a placebo and it still produced positive results. Go to Google and search for placebo effect studies and you might be surprised at how powerful the mind can be if it believes some effect should occur

Scientifically I know that hardness and elasticity of metals are unrelated and that elastic modulus is not affected in the slightest by softening the metal. I also know that I see fewer vertical flyers from annealed. Whether that is placebo or has something to do with the yield point being affected by the annealing I have no clue. Nor do I really care at this point. My vertical fliers seem to have went away and that is really all I care about

 

[Bc'z]

I’m not wanting to hijack this thread but being it pertains to annealing I’d like to ask everyone’s opinion on how many firings you are getting out of your brass annealing it on a regular basis?

I have a set of hornady that's on 13 hits and going strong.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

Ok, I’ll throw a question out there. If you don’t anneal yourself and wanted to send it off to DJ’s to have it done, is there round count number that would be best to have this done?
Obviously I wouldn’t want to send it off every reload. I was wondering if anyone had tried it every 3rd or 5th firing or something.

 

[Chiquita]

Ok, I’ll throw a question out there. If you don’t anneal yourself and wanted to send it off to DJ’s to have it done, is there round count number that would be best to have this done?
Obviously I wouldn’t want to sed it off every reload. I was wondering if anyone had tried it every 3rd or 5th firing or something.

If you are relatively handy, build yourself a torch annealer or you can modify a handheld induction heater to anneal your brass and anneal it after every firing.

 

[Evan]

Ok, I’ll throw a question out there. If you don’t anneal yourself and wanted to send it off to DJ’s to have it done, is there round count number that would be best to have this done?
Obviously I wouldn’t want to sed it off every reload. I was wondering if anyone had tried it every 3rd or 5th firing or something.

I would go by feel. I can tell when my necks are hardening because the bushing no longer sizes the neck as much and bullets seat softer and softer. I have Lapua brass that's on it's 15th reload without annealing and still going strong. Custom chambers with properly fit dies, using minimal neck tension and pushing the shoulders only as much as is nessecary really makes brass last. I anneal when I get a new barrel to "reset" the brass, although new barrels cut with the same reamer for the same custom action end up with near bang on headspace so the brass never really moves much after the first "fireforming".

 

[Webster]

Here's a link an article that discusses a few different methods, in particular the low tech "candle method". It was developed by a metallurgist and it's a slow but simple and inexpensive way to extend the life of his brass. https://www.handloadermagazine.com/annealing-rifle-brass

I disagree with many things in the article. However if he is using Templaq and AMPS there is nothing wrong with what he is doing.
Bad Statements:
Annealing starts as low as 480F.
The candle method cannot get hot enough to anneal. It may stress relieve if your lucky.
You don't have to dump into water to stop the annealing.
Many people have over annealed the case head. It's almost impossible to get the head to an annealing temp range. Someone on this website melted a case neck with an induction annealer without over heating the head. You need at least 750F for more that 5 seconds. A lot longer than 5 sec based I actual data I have posted on this website before.
Glowing red is about 1050F not 800F.