shoulderd prefit vs gunsmith barrel

[mike a]

Im very much considering buying a Zermatt Origin action. They offer shouldered prefit barrels for this action...

I know the argument goes back and forth with barrel nut barrels, but what about shouldered prefit?

What about the higher quality prefits like bugholes or keystone that use known quality blanks and do excellent chambers?

Someday I’m gonna get a shouldered/smithed barrel. Until then I do this with my Bighorn TL3, Shilen prefit with a nut. Note, I only shoot 600 f- open with it and don’t expect .2s. It will stay in the 10 ring though. On calm days I’ve shot quite a few cleans. I’d say if you got the money go top shelf. This is some practice at 500.

 

[INTJ]

I suppose my point is that we don’t want people to stay home because they feel they can’t compete. I haven’t been to a lot of 1 k events but I haven’t seen anyone shooting under .15 Moa at those I’ve attended

Most well tuned rifles are capable of close to that in good conditions. We typically tune in good conditions so that is our goal, and seeing 1.5 MOA at 100 and 200 yds is not unusual.

I would rather push someone to not accept that their half MOA rifle is good enough. That is better than showing up at a match, being last in everything, and never coming back. If they can show up with a 1/4 MOA rifle they have a chance.

 

[jelenko]

such a chore to swap barrels.

Mmmmmm. About 5-10 minute with the remages I've done. [I'm assuming that we're both starting with with enough of the stock/chassis removed to get at barrel] That's longer than 2-3, but it's with $300 barrel that I can buy from several different suppliers.
I compete in 'XTC' and 1/2 MOA is great; 3/4 MOA wouldn't change the score - might add some X's.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Mmmmmm. About 5-10 minute with the remages I've done. [I'm assuming that we're both starting with with enough of the stock/chassis removed to get at barrel] That's longer than 2-3, but it's with $300 barrel that I can buy from several different suppliers.
I compete in 'XTC' and 1/2 MOA is great; 3/4 MOA wouldn't change the score - might add some X's.

My apologies, I should have worded that better. I meant to say it's a chore to swap and have it headspace the exact same. I tried many times, and could never do it 'easily'. I'm an idiot though, so take that into account.

With shouldered barrels, I don't even pull the scope off the action, or the action out of the stock. With an electric impact, I bet you could swap one in under a minute.

 

[INTJ]

When I started LR BR 15 years ago, SR BR rifles were rountinely shooting .1 and better while LR BR rifles were shooting .35 to .5 MOA. Nowadays an LR BR rifle is on the heels of an SR BR rifle at 100 and 200 yds and we see lots of 2-3" groups at 1000 and 1" groups at 600. LR BR has come that far in the last 15 years.

I don't know much about barrel nuts, but for all but BR and high levels of F-Class I don't see what they wouldn't be a viable option.

 

[Bc'z]

My apologies, I should have worded that better. I meant to say it's a chore to swap and have it headspace the exact same. I tried many times, and could never do it 'easily'. I'm an idiot though, so take that into account.

With shouldered barrels, I don't even pull the scope off the action, or the action out of the stock. With an electric impact, I bet you could swap one in under a minute.

Mike I swear we just had this conversation a couple few weeks ago.
I also asked @WSMNUT, @Hntndad the same question.
ALL gave the same answer.
Barrel vise and action wrench are in my future.

 

[ricco1949]

That depends on the customer, a CBI or Savage has not won a group agg at a Nats. Thats how I measure accuracy, group. What you need to think about is how many Savages and CBI's are capable of that. Consistency.

@Alex Wheeler

Different era.......my shooting partner Tim Lambert won the NBRSA 1000 yard HG Nationals in 2003 at Beyer's, Co. with a Savage single shot action with a shouldered Hart barrel in 7 WSM.

He set the then NBRSA 6 target agg record in the process just edging out @DaveTooley in a slugfest down to the last target.

His Savage win caused quite a stir and Savage flew him and his smith Elmer Laitala to the Savage Headquarters to tell their story to the Savage staff. They made him two custom actions for his efforts while he was there with his signature engraved in them.

Later Savage sent him one of the first six, left port right bolt actions to come off the line and Arnold Jewell sent him one of the very few Savage Jewell triggers he made to complement the action.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Was this that same company?

 

[jelenko]

My apologies, I should have worded that better. I meant to say it's a chore to swap and have it headspace the exact same. I tried many times, and could never do it 'easily'. I'm an idiot though, so take that into account.

With shouldered barrels, I don't even pull the scope off the action, or the action out of the stock. With an electric impact, I bet you could swap one in under a minute.

OK. That is easier. For remages, you do need to get at the barrel nut. So, add another almost 10 minutes to get the stock off/back on.

For the remages I've done, all you can tell is how far down the bolt handle goes before it stops on the no go gauge.

Now, just gotta get the cost of the barrel below $400

 

[ricco1949]

Same Company different era.

 

[Bc'z]

Was this that same company?

View attachment 1216783

Tommie n me were laughing our asses off over this phopah, this evening.
He told me it was backwards, he never said it was upside down also. LMAO!!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

@Alex Wheeler

Different era.......my shooting partner Tim Lambert won the NBRSA 1000 yard HG Nationals in 2003 at Beyer's, Co. with a Savage single shot action with a shouldered Hart barrel in 7 WSM.

He set the then NBRSA 6 target agg record in the process just edging out @DaveTooley in a slugfest down to the last target.

His Savage win caused quite a stir and Savage flew him and his smith Elmer Laitala to the Savage Headquarters to tell their story to the Savage staff. They made him two custom actions for his efforts while he was there with his signature engraved in them.

Later Savage sent him one of the first six, left port right bolt actions to come off the line and Arnold Jewell sent him one of the very few Savage Jewell triggers he made to complement

That was a Hart barrel not CBI or Savage like mentioned. Savage actions can shoot, they do have other issues that hold them back.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

A gun that shoots .2's is no longer competitive in short range, Alex...group or score and hasn't been for 10-20 years. That was my point.

This isn't a long vs short range point..but rather, pointing out that the shooter has more input as distance increases. Still...a .5 gun has won at 1000 annd would be dead last in a short range match unless someone broke or quit.

I didn't say .2s I said 2's. As in 2" at 1k. At 100, you still expect zeros and ones if you tune there. Also I kind of disagree on your other point I think the further you go the more you are relying on the tune because the conditions get harder and harder to read. At 100 yd a good flag reader can actually read all of the conditions. I could show up with the best PPC on the line and I'm not going to win. But if I show up with the best shooting 1k gun I have a chance.

 

[ricco1949]

That was a Hart barrel not CBI or Savage like mentioned. Savage actions can shoot, they do have other issues that hold them back.

10-4.....I thought your comment was inclusive of Savage actions and you may not have known about Tim's win in 2003.

 

[jackieschmidt]

You BR boys can fight amongst yourselves.

I'll just say that nutted setups give the illusion of switch barrel capability. The reality is, nutted barrels are a pain in the ass to headspace the exact same way every time. I know somebody will be along to tell me they swap barrels on their savage to within .0001 every time, I just know I was never able to.

What it really does is prevent you from having to go to the gun smith to get a new barrel, but you end up with the thing on there until its shot out, because it's such a chore to swap barrels.

Shouldered barrels are true "switch barrel rigs". Takes ~2-3 minutes, and it's the exact same every single time.

Ultimately though, the right answer is to give your smith your action as many times as he needs. You'll usually end up with a better result...at least in my experience.

Edit: BTW - I doubt anyone asking this question is planning to shoot BR. If so, they'll find out about barrel nuts and pre-fits the expensive way.

^^^^^^
especially the last sentence.

 

[DaveTooley]

@Alex Wheeler

Different era.......my shooting partner Tim Lambert won the NBRSA 1000 yard HG Nationals in 2003 at Beyer's, Co. with a Savage single shot action with a shouldered Hart barrel in 7 WSM.

He set the then NBRSA 6 target agg record in the process just edging out @DaveTooley in a slugfest down to the last target.

His Savage win caused quite a stir and Savage flew him and his smith Elmer Laitala to the Savage Headquarters to tell their story to the Savage staff. They made him two custom actions for his efforts while he was there with his signature engraved in them.

Later Savage sent him one of the first six, left port right bolt actions to come off the line and Arnold Jewell sent him one of the very few Savage Jewell triggers he made to complement the action.

That combination of Tim's had some magic dust sprinkled on it. I don't think he ever duplicated that level of performance again. Any of us that have competed over the years have had special combinations. A great marriage between barrel and bullet is fun fun fun.

 

[GSRswapandslow]

yeah, i definitely was not referring to BR rifles. This is going to be (like 99% of my rifles) a do-all rig for target, varmint, and hunting. 6bra shooting 105's

 

[Alex Wheeler]

yeah, i definitely was not referring to BR rifles. This is going to be (like 99% of my rifles) a do-all rig for target, varmint, and hunting. 6bra shooting 105's

Most of the time when a guy asks something regarding accuracy the topic ends up on BR rifles. Thats because thats where we learn everything from. Most of the stuff I know and apply to all rifles I learned from BR rifles. Without my involvement in BR I wouldnt be able to build a hunting or varmint rifle as accurate. I just wouldnt have learned the finer points. So dont take it like all we care about is BR, I really love tuning up the magnums and sporters, but its hard to learn about raw accuracy from them.

 

[DaveTooley]

Most of the time when a guy asks something regarding accuracy the topic ends up on BR rifles. Thats because thats where we learn everything from. Most of the stuff I know and apply to all rifles I learned from BR rifles. Without my involvement in BR I wouldnt be able to build a hunting or varmint rifle as accurate. I just wouldnt have learned the finer points. So dont take it like all we care about is BR, I really love tuning up the magnums and sporters, but its hard to learn about raw accuracy from them.

Amen Brother. It's the crucible where things are quickly sorted out or in.

 

[ricco1949]

That combination of Tim's had some magic dust sprinkled on it. I don't think he ever duplicated that level of performance again. Any of us that have competed over the years have had special combinations. A great marriage between barrel and bullet is fun fun fun.

@DaveTooley

Yes Dave his heavy gun did have some magic dust sprinkled on it at the 2003 Nationals.

However, Tim was not a one hit wonder, even though he never won another National he remained competitive for a couple more years.

At the 2005 IBS 1000 Nationals at Iowa he registered the following top 10's out of 120 competitors.

3rd Two Gun Overall.
5th LG Score.
7th LG Overall
5th. HG Score
5th HG Overall.

All shot with his Savage actions . Tim gave up competitive shooting soon there after and has never competed since.