Incident at range

[Rustytigwire]

Gong bang today. 3 ar's on 2 tables with chamber flags up and visible. Range cold. 3 of us at 2 center tables one guy at the south end. 2 went out to place targets. My guy asked how i labeled different loads. I walked right across the yellow to a rifle table to show him the inside of my box lids paper yada yada... tap on my shoulder. Lifetime member reminded me we are range cold.
I was consciously not near the weapons but without doubt in violation.
Not feelin too smart. I do not take this lightly.
Tom

 

[INTJ]

Not even close , my buddy flip safety off and boom. Finger not even within 100 miles of the trigger. Load another , same thing- boom. His arrogant gunsmith jerk told my buddy he was full of crap and then blew a big hole in the pavement just outside the back door. Then he said maybe it is a defective trigger after all.

Not even close , my buddy flip safety off and boom. Finger not even within 100 miles of the trigger. Load another , same thing- boom. His arrogant gunsmith jerk told my buddy he was full of crap and then blew a big hole in the pavement just outside the back door. Then he said maybe it is a defective trigger after all.

I never said that the Rem trigger couldn't be defective. It can also be adjusted to be unsafe. I have seen unsafe adjustments even from guys who thought they knew what they were doing.

My point was in the original investigation, the trigger connector separating from the trigger was blamed as a significant cause of the ADs. On the X-Mark Pro there isn't a trigger connector to separate, and a Remington 700s ergonomics when releasing the safety easily allows a finger in the trigger guard and lead to an AD. So don't do that......

Make no mistake, I think Rem 700s are an inferior design, but my testing years ago leads me to believe most of the ADs are caused by ergonomics, not mechanical failure. Many of the Rems that experienced ADs could not be duplicated.

All of which brings me back to the original point if this thread. The final safety is muzzle control since any mechanical device can fail.

 

[INTJ]

I just take offense that you blame people although this does happen many times I’m sure in my instance and the guy that posted after mine the hands were nowhere near the trigger and Remington is famous for having Remington moments let me look for that ignore button

I am not concerned about offense. People are even less reliable than mechanical devices. If I had a dollar for every time someone told me their finger was nowhere near the trigger......

And if we can't consider unique and well-supported positions, then the ignore button is probably best.

 

[Evan]

Our club is now considering changes in procedures that would include all new member to prove competency both safety and shooting with each class of firearm they plan to use. This will have to wait until next year to be formally adopted by Club as dictated by charter. As an RSO, I expect that every interaction will result in a gun pointed at me. This is how I approach any interaction and prepare accordingly. I am especially wary of minors, pistol bays (everyone trying to be dynamic and fast without any training), and everyone on the 50 yard line (95% of all modern sporting rifle/pistol owners never shoot further). I am not prejudice against any specific weapon type or shooter, but there are some standouts that seem to be the magnet for problems.

You just have to plan for the worst and expect a shooter to turn around to face you while they simultaneously forget that he/she is still holding a loaded weapon. After RSO for IDPA, you get comfortable being close. I prefer to interact with our shooters really closely... as in close enough that when they start to turn around with a gun or accidentally point gun in wrong direction I can easily block or redirect their position to keep me, other shooters, and themselves safe.

Our club allows a member to bring up to 6 guests (spectators) of which 2 can be shooting. My interpretation of this rule is that there can only be 2 shooters, and the member is now in charge of overseeing his quests. When it involves minors my preference is an adult designated to directly oversee the minors. I always put eyeballs on minors and their adult to see if they know what they are doing and also that the adult is exercising appropriate level of focus and concern on safety and actions of minor. I am constantly amazed when I encounter shooters who are focused on making Videos and Selfies. When was last time you walked into a shooting bay to find a 10 year old holding an Iphone standing in front of line of fire so that the group of 5 shooters can all get captured shooting at same time?! Only one answer for that level of stupidity...tear up their membership.

If you are an RSO then you should also have a trauma kit of your own that includes at least two (2) tourniquettes, Israeli Z bandages, Anti-clot, etc. The 1st tourniquette is for you.

I'm interested in how well that competency test works out. I've frequently noticed that folks, when asked to demonstrate or explain safe procedures, have no problems with it but then let it all go to the wind when they've got live ammo in hand. I've always been of the opinion that nothing makes someone think harder than being kicked out for the day. 3 strikes and you're banned seems fair.

As a 6 year old, I started with a BB gun, which you could shoot once, then you had to pump it up to shoot again. Nice and slow with lots of time for coaching and careful oversight by my father or grandpa and absolutely no way for more than 1 AD but someone was right there helping me control the direction of the muzzle. My personal opinion is that it is gross negligence to hand any untrained shooter a weapon that can shoot repeatedly. Everything should always start single shot, even if it's an AR or a pistol. Back to my story: as I got a bit older and was "ok" to shoot the big guns the absolute rule was upon my first mistake, I was told what I did wrong and I got to go sit in the car and think about it until my dad was ready to leave. I was done for the day. It's a wise way to teach someone to be thoughtful and careful in their actions. You don't get to try again; you are separated from the activity so that you can reflect on it without the excitement and stimulus that led you to be complacent to begin with.

 

[Oso]

Evan - Ditto on my training in firearms... BB Gun --> Pellet Gun --> 22LR bolt rifle --> 22LR Pistol --> 410 Shotgun ---> 20ga Shotgun --> 5-10 years later I am allowed to go hunting with my dad and brother... only after I was observer/spotter for a couple of years so that I knew how it worked and learned from watching others being instructed.

I agree it will be difficult and by no means is this going to be a in-depth / catch-all test. However, it is a step in the right direction for our club that has on open enrollment policy in which anyone can join if they are able to register for one of the open slots during the on-line registration window (1st come first serve). It is an initial screening process by which we can put eyes on our new members to determine if they possess some level of competence:
1) Operate their firearms (pistols, rifles, AR/AK, shotgun)
2) Basic Safety fundamentals from transporting their weapon to the shooting bench, securing the weapon, and storing it
3) Ability to shoot their firearm and hit the designated target area... no AD's, shooting ground, shooting over the berm, etc.

At the very least this is an Acid Test of the most minimal level of skills required to participate in a shooting club. If they can't perform the basics then we will suspend/terminate their membership or require them to pursue practice/professional training elsewhere.

 

[fyrewall]

While unloading a hunting rifle, I ignored the number one gun safety rule and shot a hole in my truck door, that was 25 years ago and I still don't know with 100% certainty what happened. It was a older model Remington 700, I laid it on the truck seat and flipped the safety off to open the bolt and it discharged, the only thing that I can think could have happened was that something on the seat stuck in the trigger guard and put pressure on the trigger. I was absolutely horrified that I was so stupid and could have killed someone because I did not have my muzzle in a safe direction.

I have no trouble sharing that story, especially if talking to someone at the range or on a hunt about their gun handling.

Some years ago an event like that occurred at the parking lot in front of the Home Depot store in Bozeman MT. Thru a variety of causes, some older Rem 700 rifles may discharge upon switching off the safety when loaded. I prefer to be able to open the bolt leaving the safety engaged.

 

[INTJ]

Some years ago an event like that occurred at the parking lot in front of the Home Depot store in Bozeman MT. Thru a variety of causes, some older Rem 700 rifles may discharge upon switching off the safety when loaded. I prefer to be able to open the bolt leaving the safety engaged.

Yes! There are many causes other than just the well known Remmy mechanical issue. It's also why I prefer the M-70 three position safety, though it too can fail.

 

[Oso]

Hotwells Shooting Range in Houston had a Incident a couple of years ago in which a customer brought in his rifle into the gun shop to have a scope installed. While employee was removing it from gun case, the rifle went off sending a round through the building and out into the parking where it hit a guy in the head (DOA) who was getting out of his car.

I was at Carter's Country when a young lady came in to get bullets for her gun, which she brought in with her. Her boyfriend told her to get the special lethal bullets... She took out the gun to show the employee. RULE #1 - GUN IS LOADED UNTIL PROVEN TO NOT BE. The only reason the employee didn't end up catching a bullet was because the girl had loaded bullets into magazine facing backwards. Guns, drugs, and strippers are a bad match!!!

Lesson - Treat all guns as if a round is in chamber... drop the mag and then rack the slide to confirm chamber is empty. Also, don't assume that gun store has properly inspected and cleared the guns in the "Used Guns" for sale section.

 

[SEGARE]

At a State owned range about 15 years ago- sighting in for deer season when the next bench over sent one through the roof. I couldn't pack up fast enough...never been back.

I had a couple of other close calls when I was much younger-

I was 15-16YO and two first cousins lived right down the road from me. In that era it was no big deal to shine fields for rabbits. I was driving my dad's 76 Chevy C10. They had a hay field that was always happy hunting at night, but that night was like none I had ever seen. Literally, rabbits were like fleas on a yard dog. I was driving and they were shooting. They had an A5 they used but somehow they brought an old single shot 16 which didnt have a trigger guard. In the midst of the rapid fire hunt, we jumped into the truck to move around the field. One of the cousins jumped in with their 16 and the trigger caught the seat and discharged through the floor. The next morning I checked for damage and could only find a small hole that was way up under the dash. That truck had vinyl floors and I cut a piece from an inconspicuous place and slide it underneath....end of story. Several years later my dad had to change a motor mount and mentioned to me that when they got it out, it looked like it had been shot (WWII vet...guess he knew what he saw and was probably trying to see if I would add to the story). I told him what happened and we had a laugh. I just remember the sound of that discharge inside the all-steel cab...probably couldn't hear for a week.

A couple of years later my dad, my brother, and myself were were going on a dove hunt with my girlfriend's dad and two brothers. Her dad had a O/U 10g. I have no idea why they took that gun to the field, but I remember him loading it and handing it to one of the sons. The next thing I remember was seeing it was it discharging next to his head. I dont remember anything else about that hunt, but I've never forgotten the look on his face.

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

It can be done with most rifles. I was even able to get an M-70 to do it when I released the safety with my thumb, though that isn't normally how an M-70 safety is released. However, on the rifles I tested the Rem 700 was by far the easiest to have a finger in the trigger guard while thumbing off the safety.

As to why tang safeties don't seem to have as many ADs, I think it has to do with how a tang safety is usually released. You normally grab the grip behind the trigger guard and thumb off the safety. That said, if you were above to keep your finger in the trigger guard when releasing the safety that could cause an AD.

The answer to any scenario and exception you can come up with is to muzzle control and keeping your finger it if the trigger guard.

muzzle control 1000%

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

Some years ago an event like that occurred at the parking lot in front of the Home Depot store in Bozeman MT. Thru a variety of causes, some older Rem 700 rifles may discharge upon switching off the safety when loaded. I prefer to be able to open the bolt leaving the safety engaged.

I always poing the muzzle at the ground when I cycle the bolt on most any firearm. Lots of AD or NDs (?) with Glock or Glocklike pistols. A jacket closing string with knot can get caught in drawing or holstering said Glock or SW, etc. The Rem. trigger, original, discussion is about the most sophisticated discussion of maintenance, mechanics, human tendencies, and good old gun safety, I have ever read.

 

[Xerothermic]

View attachment 1165070
It’s called a Remington moment and happens more often than you think my wife did the same thing with her 270 I am always on her about safety when she turned around her face was white as a ghost and showed me and said see the safety is still on she touched the bolt to unload it and it went off and shot a hole through my shed wall the gun sat in the Safe for two years and it is the 65 284 I have today the only thing Remington is the bolt body and the action body everything else was changed I got her a new Tika

People dicking with their triggers happens more often than you think.

 

[SGK]

Our club is now considering changes in procedures that would include all new member to prove competency both safety and shooting with each class of firearm they plan to use.

Standard procedure at any NRA managed range in the UK. You have to demonstrate competency to earn your 'safe shooter' card and carry that card with you at all times. It lists the calibers you've passed competency on. Needs to be renewed every few years. Commonsense self-regulation of shooters by shooters.

PS: who the hell would place a rifle inside a vehicle without first checking the chamber was clear?

 

[Jimbag]

At my club there is a probationary period where you cannot shoot without a pre arranged section head on the line with you to evaluate your safe handling. You must get 5 signatures from separate section heads before you clear probation. Thats after the mandatory 2 hour club orientation session.
Of course there is a training and background check just to get a gun license thats how it is here in Canada.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Some folks should not be allowed to breathe let alone be near a gun.... Just sayin..

Was out popping a few rounds with an EX Deputy Sheriff friend.
He was fingering my Single Six and popped a round into the ground right next to me.

And just before that, had passed the muzzle of my M1A across my mid section?
And NO, we didn't go shooting together anymore!!

We have FLASHING LIGHTS to turn on when the range is COLD and we go down to check targets.
Gun Club President gets up, steps off the shooting area, starts for the target area BEFORE calling a cease fire and turning on the FLASHING RED LIGHTS so EVERYBODY knows the range is COLD!! After I SCREAMED at him, he got the message!!!

Worked with a guy that blew a hole in his kitchen wall while cleaning his hunting rifle???
Some people should NOT be allowed to play with guns!!!

Shooting buddy brought his "renter" to the range one day. Nice Kid but, DUMB as a BOX OF ROCKS when it came to firearms!! I made it a point to stay BEHIND HIM any time he had a gun in his hands!!

Only time any of my guns see LIVE ROUNDS is OUTSIDE when NO ONE ELSE is around and the barrels are pointed at the ground!!
I have dummy rounds built to use for checking loading, un loading and action operation.

 

[M-61]

At my club there is a probationary period where you cannot shoot without a pre arranged section head on the line with you to evaluate your safe handling. You must get 5 signatures from separate section heads before you clear probation. Thats after the mandatory 2 hour club orientation session.
Of course there is a training and background check just to get a gun license thats how it is here in Canada.

Lots of rules. I know why.
Atlantic Canada is large. What province?

 

[Buzzsaw]

Makes me shiver. I hate to sound like a libtard but if you buy ANY gun you need to pass a safety class AND pass a LEARN HOW YOUR GUN WORKS class.
Scary who owns guns these days

 

[Jimbag]

Lots of rules. I know why.
Atlantic Canada is large. What province?

NS

 

[Eagle Six]

PS: who the hell would place a rifle inside a vehicle without first checking the chamber was clear?

Does a M35 Deuce and Half, Jeep, Mule, Huey count, they are transportation? I have done it many times and if I checked the chamber it was to confirm I had a loaded round in there! That was a different time and different place. I do however understand your point.

 

[M-61]

NS

Me too. Cheverie