Incident at range

[rkittine]

I started shooting in one of the programs offered in the late 50s and early 60s. I was in my teens. We shot at West Point and had been able to buy Surplus Rifles and were given ammunition for free each year. I still have my 03-A3 Springfield that I got for $15.00 and my National Match Garand, which I got for $40.00. We shot on the 300 yard range there. Standing, Prone and Sitting under military type discipline. No ARs in those days. We rotated pit duty and were taught more about safety and gun handling than shooting. The local public range in Calverton, known as the sand pit is where the paramilitary want a bees go to blow off thousands of rounds of .223 / 5.6mm. I don't shoot there. Brookhaven is open to the public and is well run and I shoot there.

In 1971 I got my NYS and NYC Carry Permits. For the state permit, I had to take a course in Rockland County where I lived, which covered safety, gun handling and shooting. I had to go to the NYC Police Academy for Handgun training and qualification for my NYC permit. I trained to be an instructor and after turning 21, taught the course for years after that.

I now live in Suffolk County and there is no requirement for any kind of gun safety or handling training required to get a pistol permit here. I know I will now get, "there is no need for it as this is a constitutional right", but I have seen too many new permit holders come to our club (which is private) and not have a clue how to handle no less shoot a firearm. When some of them are around, I go home (only 5.6 miles away thank goodness). Last year one of our Want a Bees had a round go offer from his 1911, inside the club house, fortunately it hit a few things before hitting a member of the board who was fortunate that it has lost almost all its energy and he only got a bad bruise.

Because we lease the property from the township, we let the local and regional police use a special section of the club along with the Coast Guard members from Station Montauk and Station Hampton Bays. These people follow the rules and are fun to have around. Some of the police however, especially when they have Fully Auto weapons with them, are in general not fun to be around and when they are there I leave again.

One of the reasons I am against Universal Carry is I am afraid of who might end up walking around in my town with a concealed weapon.

I know that driving a car and hunting are not Constitutional Rights, but the powers that be know that people should be trained and tested on their ability to handle cars and firearms while hunting.

I belong to Cherry Ridge Rifle and Pistol Club in New Jersey and you need to take their orientation, safety and gun handling course before you can even apply and you pay for it. Every range there only operates with a Range Officer and they are strict and enforce the rules. A little over the top at times, but I would rather have that than someone getting hurt, which could lead to the club loosing its license to operate.

Bob

 

[Gappmast]

When you teaching a new shooter with a semi auto only put one round in the gun at a time. Do this until your comfortable they are competent.

 

[dellet]

There is always a series of events that lead up to things like this and people who think teaching firearm safety now is no different, or no harder than it was when they were a kid is either fooling themselves or under 40 years old.

This was driven home to my wife and I after we arranged for her to shoot a few historical weapons. As a High School History teacher she wanted first hand knowledge to give the kids. This included a few full auto and also some modern weapons.

When she showed some of the video to the kids, what was amazing was the number of them who could not only identify the weapons, but knew exactly how to operate things like an FN P90. They were experts, just ask.

When asked where it was learned, of course it was either video games or utoob.

This type of knowledge makes for a very dangerous first time shooter. We all know how hard it is to un-learn bad habits. Many people now come to the range the first time with many bad/unsafe habits already ingrained.

Instinctive shooting or archery are terms that should be banned. In this day there is no such thing. If there were such a thing as instinctive archery, someone who had never seen a bow and arrow in their life, or even a photo, would have one instinctive shot. Everything after that would be learned. In the case of handing someone a bow and arrow, they would have a 50/50 chance of getting it right the first time. Half would pick up the bow, put the arrow on the sting and launch it. The other half would pick up the arrow put the string in the nock and launch the bow. That's why very young people who "find" guns often are on the wrong end of the muzzle. Instincts at work.

Today's "new shooters" are more dangerous simply because they come with preconceived ideas formed from virtual exposure. Sadly virtual teaching, no matter how well it's done, can not teach feeling. Recoil and trigger pull require and generate tactile responses. "That's not how I thought it would feel" is a very common response. Double or triple taps as mentioned in the OP are not uncommon

Just because when you ask a first time shooter if they have ever shot anything, and they answer no, doesn't mean in their head they don't already have a bunch of bad habits pre-installed.

Might even be some old timers here that were pretty sure that the only way to shoot a Colt single action was to point it towards the sky first or fan the hammer. Maybe some of us were just as dangerous.
.

 

[hogpatrol]

When you teaching a new shooter with a semi auto only put one round in the gun at a time. Do this until your comfortable they are competent.

Too many dads are starting their kids out with ARs and other autoloaders. From this chair, it's a bad practice that down the road and possibly years in the future, will come back to bite them in the posterior. YMMV.

 

[Papa Charlie]

When I was a member of Marysville Rifle Club here in Western Washington I was always nervous when I went down to put up or pull targets at the 200 yard line. At the 200 yard line, we have a pit so you have to pull the target down, either install or remove the target board and the targets from the board. All of this is out of sight from the line. I always made sure that I told at least three people where I was going before I left the line and let them know when I was back. Since I was out of sight, I didn't want anyone forgetting I was down there and letting the line go hot while I was down range.

The pistol range is just to the North of the 200 yard line. Always made me nervous when I would hear them firing over there as if the rifle line had got hot.

I do the same thing at Seattle Rifle & Pistol where I am also a RSO. I am visible at the 220 yard line for most of the firing line, but still want to be sure that everyone knows that I am down range and may not be visible. I do feel more comfortable at Seattle Rifle, but still on alert.

 

[group therapy]

speaking for myself, we taught our daughter (at the ripe old age of 7) gun safety. first with a BB gun(lever action, shooting at ant hills, bugs, cans, such things) and then with her 10/22 (yes, it was pink as a matter of fact) and we went to the range on school days so there wouldn't be to many peeps there(can NOT watch all the idiot folks at one time and teach simultaneously). by the time we did bring her on a weekend the line officer made a point to come over and comment on how she "is more gun safe than 95% of the shooters out here right now". I was rather proud right then, mission accomplished!! on top of that, it was the first time she had shot Benchrest (yes, she was 8 by then, I know, why did I wait so late in her life)and went from a 5% hit rate that morning to 100% hit rate by the time we left that day!!! she has since gotten older and doesn't shoot with me anymore (right now, I hope that will change someday),but friends, boys, NOT hanging out with mom and dad kinda became a reality. but really, they are some of my greatest pics and memories!!! maybe this will be a catalyst to help someone with their kid and gun safety (idea is early, with NON LETHAL weapon, and dont be afraid to keep them out of school to accomplish the goal). good day to all and remember, y'all be safe out there!!

 

[rkittine]

I have been teaching my girl friend to shoot. Started her off with a Pellet Rifle in our indoor 25 yard range and then with a S&W Model 18 look alike pellet gun. Then it was up to a .22 RF Bolt and a S&W Model 17 in .22RF. She is now shooting my 6mmBR Norma and a S&W M&P Shield EZ-380 that I just bought her. I just want to get her really good so I have an added excuse to buy more guns. (Not being married I really don't need and excuse or permission!)

Bob

 

[Oso]

Don't know when you were a kid, but the situations I see at the range now are similar to the ones I saw in the 80's. The people look different, but the actions of new shooters haven't changed.

If you mean there have always been poorly trained, poorly informed participants who don't grasp the magnitude of what a mistake could mean... then yes I agree.... Same Same. However, that constant has been compounded exponentially with the elevated interest in tacticool as every kid who played video games now feels need to own the real deal. So like 500x-1000x number of individuals who own AR/AK. Also, there wasn't a huge chunk of the populace trying out conceal carry/open carry, which was predominantly limited to law enforcement. These two areas are risky for the shooter who is inexperience with how to operate a weapon (load, unload, clear chamber, clear a jam, etc) and lack of safety/situational awareness.

Being a video game sniper does not readily translate into your ability to properly and safely use the same gun in real life. Being a veteran does not mean that you were trained on proper use of the weapon or emphasis on safety. The sense of Bravado, excessive self- confidence, &/or right/entitlement to do what you want has created more issues then anything else. This flawed mindset has resulted in the number of steps in a critical chain of events to become very short.

 

[orkan]

Being a video game sniper does not readily translate into your ability to properly and safely use the same gun in real life. Being a veteran does not mean that you were trained on proper use of the weapon or emphasis on safety. The sense of Bravado, excessive self- confidence, &/or right/entitlement to do what you want has created more issues then anything else. This flawed mindset has resulted in the number of steps in a critical chain of events to become very short.

That has very little to do with firearms. Society in general has lost its ability to value anything that requires effort and dedication. The more passionate you are and the more seriously you take something, the more society mocks you. Heaven forbid you are heavily experienced and spend all your time doing something... everyone will bludgeon you with their inexperienced opinions until you have no choice but to remain silent.

Thus, it's not surprising to me when I see the videos on the internet of people doing stupid things with firearms. They do stupid things with literally everything... and the dumber the thing, the more likes/views/follows it gets. Every single firearms forum, infested with trolls that take every opportunity to rip down every new product or service launch, despite them never having touched that product or used that service.

Everyone wants to live their life their own way, and no one can tell them anything. If you dare speak up about the idiocy, you're shouted down by all. In a world where most people don't own their homes, but yet have 2 vehicles, a motorcycle or two, a boat, and an RV... all of which also aren't paid for, logic has taken a back seat to being trendy and cool.

The message to go at a slow and very controlled pace with firearms to ensure safety is held to the highest standard is contrary to how people conduct ANYTHING in their lives.

Something very basic and very instinctual within people must change before anything else will start to swing back to logical behavior.

 

[Will Henry]

Sometimes, stuff happens. About thirty-five years ago, I worked as a gunsmith in a very busy gun store. I usually went through about 2000 tags per year. These jobs varied from cleaning and oiling to minor repairs to full custom rifles. In August through November, I was very busy and worked steadily and for long hours, to keep the hunters in the field. The people on the front counter took the guns in and wrote up the tags. Naturally, they checked to be sure the guns were unloaded before setting them on the rack and actions were left open. I just picked the gun up, read the tag, and went to work.
On this particular occasion, a semi-automatic 22 had been brought in for a feeding issue and put in the rack along with the other forty or so firearms waiting. I picked it up, removed the magazine (which was empty) and put it in the vice, upside down, to begin disassembly. Now, I had a lot of customers who, having spare time on their hands, liked to watch me work. I always said they did so little work themselves, it was a novelty to them! I didn't mind and every one knew to step aside if I started to move or I would walk right into them. One fellow was in the habit of leaning up against the door frame which was to my left. As it happened, he had just left to refill his cup with free coffee when I started on this .22. I pulled the stock off and removed one of the screws which held the trigger housing in place. The rifle fired. The bullet went through the doorway, then through the wall of the bathroom and broke a tile right in front of the urinal. Had John still been standing there with his coffee, it would have gone right through his heart. I was sick. I was angry that someone had brought a loaded gun into the store, I was angry that the clerk had not checked, but most of all, I was angry at myself because, went it came right down to it, it was my responsibility. I had, after a half dozen years in this shop, gotten complacent. I should have checked the rifle myself, before working on it. For some time after this, I suffered with anxiety attacks at night and, to this day, I shudder to think of this incident
Since then, I have never failed to check a gun before starting to work on it. I am also never too critical of others who might have made a mistake. My error could have had disastrous consequences and it was only good fortune which saved me. WH

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

While unloading a hunting rifle, I ignored the number one gun safety rule and shot a hole in my truck door, that was 25 years ago and I still don't know with 100% certainty what happened. It was a older model Remington 700, I laid it on the truck seat and flipped the safety off to open the bolt and it discharged, the only thing that I can think could have happened was that something on the seat stuck in the trigger guard and put pressure on the trigger. I was absolutely horrified that I was so stupid and could have killed someone because I did not have my muzzle in a safe direction.

I have no trouble sharing that story, especially if talking to someone at the range or on a hunt about their gun handling.

It's the defective remington trigger ! Class action lawsuit ! Recalled millions of rem. 700's over this issue. Many got killed from this trigger problem. Two of my friends had the same thing happen to them.

 

[338 dude]

It's the defective remington trigger ! Class action lawsuit ! Recalled millions of rem. 700's over this issue. Many got killed from this trigger problem. Two of my friends had the same thing happen to them.

They denied lawsuits for years over the original Walker trigger the one that happened on my wifes 270 was the X Mark pro trigger a newer version the only difference was you can work the bolt with the safety still on the gun went off anyway

 

[SPQR70AD]

I started shooting in one of the programs offered in the late 50s and early 60s. I was in my teens. We shot at West Point and had been able to buy Surplus Rifles and were given ammunition for free each year. I still have my 03-A3 Springfield that I got for $15.00 and my National Match Garand, which I got for $40.00. We shot on the 300 yard range there. Standing, Prone and Sitting under military type discipline. No ARs in those days. We rotated pit duty and were taught more about safety and gun handling than shooting. The local public range in Calverton, known as the sand pit is where the paramilitary want a bees go to blow off thousands of rounds of .223 / 5.6mm. I don't shoot there. Brookhaven is open to the public and is well run and I shoot there.

In 1971 I got my NYS and NYC Carry Permits. For the state permit, I had to take a course in Rockland County where I lived, which covered safety, gun handling and shooting. I had to go to the NYC Police Academy for Handgun training and qualification for my NYC permit. I trained to be an instructor and after turning 21, taught the course for years after that.

I now live in Suffolk County and there is no requirement for any kind of gun safety or handling training required to get a pistol permit here. I know I will now get, "there is no need for it as this is a constitutional right", but I have seen too many new permit holders come to our club (which is private) and not have a clue how to handle no less shoot a firearm. When some of them are around, I go home (only 5.6 miles away thank goodness). Last year one of our Want a Bees had a round go offer from his 1911, inside the club house, fortunately it hit a few things before hitting a member of the board who was fortunate that it has lost almost all its energy and he only got a bad bruise.

Because we lease the property from the township, we let the local and regional police use a special section of the club along with the Coast Guard members from Station Montauk and Station Hampton Bays. These people follow the rules and are fun to have around. Some of the police however, especially when they have Fully Auto weapons with them, are in general not fun to be around and when they are there I leave again.

One of the reasons I am against Universal Carry is I am afraid of who might end up walking around in my town with a concealed weapon.

I know that driving a car and hunting are not Constitutional Rights, but the powers that be know that people should be trained and tested on their ability to handle cars and firearms while hunting.

I belong to Cherry Ridge Rifle and Pistol Club in New Jersey and you need to take their orientation, safety and gun handling course before you can even apply and you pay for it. Every range there only operates with a Range Officer and they are strict and enforce the rules. A little over the top at times, but I would rather have that than someone getting hurt, which could lead to the club loosing its license to operate.

Bob

I have been in cherry ridge since 1982

 

[INTJ]

They denied lawsuits for years over the original Walker trigger the one that happened on my wifes 270 was the X Mark pro trigger a newer version the only difference was you can work the bolt with the safety still on the gun went off anyway

Remington went to a non bolt locking safety on the 700 many years ago on the old trigger. The X-Mark Pro trigger got rid of the trigger connector. The connector took a lot of the blame but I disagree that it was the main problem.

The issue with Remingtons is ergonomics, like I discussed in my earlier post. It's way too easy to release the safety with your thumb while keeping your finger in the trigger guard. If you are one of the many people whose hand rolls back when you push off the safety, and you have your finger in the trigger guard, you are likely to have an AD. In the testing I did after I had my AD, I found that many people would unknowingly put their finger in the trigger guard when being handed a rifle, and at least half would roll their hand back when releasing the safety.

This is a problem with many rifles where the safety releases in the same plane of motion as the trigger, but it's especially an issue with Rem 700s. On a Model 70 we tend to pinch the safety between our thumb and forefinger when releasing it.

 

[338 dude]

Remington went to a non bolt locking safety on the 700 many years ago on the old trigger. The X-Mark Pro trigger got rid of the trigger connector. The connector took a lot of the blame but I disagree that it was the main problem.

The issue with Remingtons is ergonomics, like I discussed in my earlier post. It's way too easy to release the safety with your thumb while keeping your finger in the trigger guard. If you are one of the many people whose hand rolls back when you push off the safety, and you have your finger in the trigger guard, you are likely to have an AD. In the testing I did after I had my AD, I found that many people would unknowingly put their finger in the trigger guard when being handed a rifle, and at least half would roll their hand back when releasing the safety.

This is a problem with many rifles where the safety releases in the same plane of motion as the trigger, but it's especially an issue with Rem 700s. On a Model 70 we tend to pinch the safety between our thumb and forefinger when releasing it.

when this happened to my wife the rifle was on safety she touched the bolt to unload it her hand was wrapped around the bolt handle her finger was nowhere near the trigger guard when it went off and when she turned around and showed me the safety was on still!!!

 

[338 dude]

That Remington was completely rebuilt as stated earlier I have not had a problem since but I will never buy another Remington again. The term Remington moment is common and well documented

 

[338 dude]

Remington went to a non bolt locking safety on the 700 many years ago on the old trigger. The X-Mark Pro trigger got rid of the trigger connector. The connector took a lot of the blame but I disagree that it was the main problem.

The issue with Remingtons is ergonomics, like I discussed in my earlier post. It's way too easy to release the safety with your thumb while keeping your finger in the trigger guard. If you are one of the many people whose hand rolls back when you push off the safety, and you have your finger in the trigger guard, you are likely to have an AD. In the testing I did after I had my AD, I found that many people would unknowingly put their finger in the trigger guard when being handed a rifle, and at least half would roll their hand back when releasing the safety.

This is a problem with many rifles where the safety releases in the same plane of motion as the trigger, but it's especially an issue with Rem 700s. On a Model 70 we tend to pinch the safety between our thumb and forefinger when releasing it.

What about say a savage or any other model of rifle that has a tang safety the ergonomics would be the same as Remington you could have your finger on the trigger and work the tang safety with your thumb but you don’t hear about accidental discharges with savages or other rifles with Tang safeties

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

Remington went to a non bolt locking safety on the 700 many years ago on the old trigger. The X-Mark Pro trigger got rid of the trigger connector. The connector took a lot of the blame but I disagree that it was the main problem.

The issue with Remingtons is ergonomics, like I discussed in my earlier post. It's way too easy to release the safety with your thumb while keeping your finger in the trigger guard. If you are one of the many people whose hand rolls back when you push off the safety, and you have your finger in the trigger guard, you are likely to have an AD. In the testing I did after I had my AD, I found that many people would unknowingly put their finger in the trigger guard when being handed a rifle, and at least half would roll their hand back when releasing the safety.

This is a problem with many rifles where the safety releases in the same plane of motion as the trigger, but it's especially an issue with Rem 700s. On a Model 70 we tend to pinch the safety between our thumb and forefinger when releasing it.

Not even close , my buddy flip safety off and boom. Finger not even within 100 miles of the trigger. Load another , same thing- boom. His arrogant gunsmith jerk told my buddy he was full of crap and then blew a big hole in the pavement just outside the back door. Then he said maybe it is a defective trigger after all.

 

[INTJ]

What about say a savage or any other model of rifle that has a tang safety the ergonomics would be the same as Remington you could have your finger on the trigger and work the tang safety with your thumb but you don’t hear about accidental discharges with savages or other rifles with Tang safeties

It can be done with most rifles. I was even able to get an M-70 to do it when I released the safety with my thumb, though that isn't normally how an M-70 safety is released. However, on the rifles I tested the Rem 700 was by far the easiest to have a finger in the trigger guard while thumbing off the safety.

As to why tang safeties don't seem to have as many ADs, I think it has to do with how a tang safety is usually released. You normally grab the grip behind the trigger guard and thumb off the safety. That said, if you were above to keep your finger in the trigger guard when releasing the safety that could cause an AD.

The answer to any scenario and exception you can come up with is to muzzle control and keeping your finger it if the trigger guard.

 

[338 dude]

It can be done with most rifles. I was even able to get an M-70 to do it when I released the safety with my thumb, though that isn't normally how an M-70 safety is released. However, on the rifles I tested the Rem 700 was by far the easiest to have a finger in the trigger guard while thumbing off the safety.

As to why tang safeties don't seem to have as many ADs, I think it has to do with how a tang safety is usually released. You normally grab the grip behind the trigger guard and thumb off the safety. That said, if you were above to keep your finger in the trigger guard when releasing the safety that could cause an AD.

The answer to any scenario and exception you can come up with is to muzzle control and keeping your finger it if the trigger guard.

I just take offense that you blame people although this does happen many times I’m sure in my instance and the guy that posted after mine the hands were nowhere near the trigger and Remington is famous for having Remington moments let me look for that ignore button