Berger 7mm 190gr long range hybrid

[davidjoe]

None of that sounds very encouraging, Lawrence. If the 195’s couldn’t ever blow up, I wouldn’t be trying these at all. I’ll be running them with a slower burning powder, Re 25 in a saum with .5 grains less than max for 184’s, -63.0 grains.

I’m not planning to try them in a .284 because tipped 195’s in my .284’s at 2,850 don’t blow up, and are already too far ahead in BC for the 190’s to match even if I were to get them well past 2,900.

If they are remotely blow up prone I’m going to find that out soon.

 

[whatwind?]

I tested the 190’s in a 284 Shehane with RL23 at 1000 yards. I tested 52.3,52.8 and 53.3(pressure and hard bolt lift). None of the groups were impressive and had vertical over 10”-15”. My rifle will typically shoot 20rds of 184’s into a 4”-8” group on a calm day.

The 190’s measure the same OAL as my lot of 184’s. My 184 load is running around 2850 fps. At 53.3 the 190’s showed pressure and were running 2820-2830. I ran the 190’s alongside my shooting buddy and his rifle shot just as bad with the 190’s. We also observed a decrease in BC at 1000 yards compared to what our tipped 184’s do.

At the moment, I’d say a straight 284 or a 284 Shehane will perform the best with 180’s or 184’s and that is what is currently dominating in the fclass/f-open leaderboards.

Hopefully some will have luck with the 190’s in a magnum cartridge but for now I will skip these and continue to use what is winning.

is reloader 26 an option?

 

[lawrence97]

RL26 might work for you if speed is your goal. I shoot fclass and I need a powder that is consistent over a day or a few days of shooting. My success depends on a powder/bullet combo that will give me the same results in the cool morning and the heat of the day over several days and throughout a full relay.
I cannot concentrate on shooting if I have to worry about my bullet blowing up or my load not being consistent.

 

[thomasholbrook43]

Well out for 1000 yard testing of New 190 LRH. First four shots today. 10 to 15 mph quartering right to left wind. Put in 2 moa right wind. This was clean bore shots. These bullets are going to work out just fine.

 

[lawrence97]

Well out for 1000 yard testing of New 190 LRH. First four shots today. 10 to 15 mph quartering right to left wind. Put in 2 moa right wind. This was clean bore shots. These bullets are going to work out just fine.View attachment 1162643

Did you test with a magnum?
I would like to see your results with a larger round count or perhaps a 20 shot string.
If these 190’s turn out to be accurate a magnum is the way to go.

 

[davidjoe]

Did they hold out for longer testing, Thomas? I could see your load in the target name you assigned. The accuracy was great in those shots. The accuracy was great but, or should I say “and” that velocity wasn’t very high. I’ll be trying them too when they arrive.

JMO, watching TR from the standpoint of Open, two big things come to mind. First, they prove that excellent wind calls are paramount, because they sure don’t have speed. But second, if you took 150 FPS off the leader’s .308 load in a crowded field, it would likely cost the leader 25 or more places in a big match. That second thought is why if I can add the speed, I try to.

There’s another way to look at it, pushing high BC is effectively identical to moving that gun forward, say the 900 line instead of the 1,000. Doesn’t mean you’ll score higher than a way better wind caller, but it does mean you’ll score better than you would have at 1,000.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

JMO, watching TR from the standpoint of Open, two big things come to mind. First, they prove that excellent wind calls are paramount, because they sure don’t have speed. But second, if you took 150 FPS off the leader’s .308 load in a crowded field, it would likely cost the leader 25 or more places in a big match. That second thought is why if I can add the speed, I try to.

I'm sorry (not sorry) but this statement is complete horseshit.

 

[MattPeetz]

I'm sorry (not sorry) but this statement is complete horseshit.

come on Jay. You know you can’t beat internet know it alls. Hehehe

 

[Willow]

None of that sounds very encouraging, Lawrence. If the 195’s couldn’t ever blow up, I wouldn’t be trying these at all. I’ll be running them with a slower burning powder, Re 25 in a saum with .5 grains less than max for 184’s, -63.0 grains.

I’m not planning to try them in a .284 because tipped 195’s in my .284’s at 2,850 don’t blow up, and are already too far ahead in BC for the 190’s to match even if I were to get them well past 2,900.

If they are remotely blow up prone I’m going to find that out soon.

Why would you push a bullet to the point of risking it blowing up in an F-class comp, or any comp?

 

[No i deer]

Hi Dave..
Have you used the 7mm 183gr smks and what's your thoughts on them..??

 

[davidjoe]

Why would you push a bullet to the point of risking it blowing up in an F-class comp, or any comp?

You don’t want to risk blowups. There’s no way to know where that point is in a particular magnum barrel until it has actually happened. I’ve never blown up any bullet in a 284, only saums.

The 195 I blew up on shot 19 after 12 sighters in a Saum that last relay was the first of those for me in more than 10,000 195’s shot through saums and .284’s.

It wasn’t loaded hotter, but the barrel was longer, 36 inches. This also happened to another shooter at Berger, two 195 bullets with a regular length barrel.

The 195 is my favorite 7mm bullet and I’ve got a lot of them to use in both 284 and saum. If the 190’s shoot well and prove not to blow up in the heat of a saum then I’ll likely change.

 

[davidjoe]

Hi Dave..
Have you used the 7mm 183gr smks and what's your thoughts on them..??

Yes, I and several guys at our range tried and used them when new. One of them won the state midrange with them. They come tipped and look very good. I still have them and it’s been a plan without a timeframe to go shoot them more. I believe the 2017 nationals at Lodi WI was won by Bob Mead with them.

 

[No i deer]

One of our f open shooters won the GB f class open league in 2019 with the 183gr smks but his next barrel didn't like them apparently..!!
I have got a box but not bothered to try them yet...

 

[davidjoe]

I plan to try them in a saum. I had some flyers back then with a .284 that caused to set them down. The 197’s came out but my barrels couldn’t reliably stabilize them. There would be holes a couple moa from the group. Not keyholed but perfectly round holes lower or lateral. A seven twist was more specialized than I wanted to order at the time because if the 197’s didn’t work out it’s not ideal for anything else.

 

[davidjoe]

I'm sorry (not sorry) but this statement is complete horseshit.

... 5 or 6 points fewer at the TR SWN Palma was 25 places down. I would think dropping a load from about 2,690 to 2,540 could take 5-6 points off the score.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

... 5 or 6 points fewer at the TR SWN Palma was 25 places down. I would think dropping a load from about 2,690 to 2,540 could take 5-6 points off the score.

*Could* is the operative word here. And there are many, many, many things that *could* take 5-6 points off a score, all of them far more relevant than a slower load resulting in a reduced BC. IMO, this kind of thinking is a perfect example of a deductive fallacy. You are making far too many assumptions with regards to the dozens or more other (more important) factors involved.

 

[davidjoe]

Alright Jay, point taken, agree, it’s not a stand alone factor, but give me this, what would TR shooters say if a shooter proposed to add 150 FPS, by shooting a WSM with 200’s in TR? There’s not one guy or gal that would be ok with that.

If you tried to tell them that it might not help your score, I don’t see them accepting that.

 

[Mulligan]

Alright Jay, point taken, agree, it’s not a stand alone factor, but give me this, what would TR shooters say if a shooter proposed to add 150 FPS, by shooting a WSM with 200’s in TR? There’s not one guy or gal that would be ok with that.

If you tried to tell them that it might not help your score, I don’t see them accepting that.

You are likely correct on adding a cartridge that one could mathematically prove has an advantage.

However, on the the battlefield where we separate the mathematicians from the operators, it is a different world.

I know at least one fella who Shoots the lower node with a 284 that has plenty of wins at the National level.
Torque, recoil, confidence in accuracy, time spent practicing a good way, etc. all have a place in this buffet of variables.
CW

 

[davidjoe]

There’s a number of guys that make incredible wind calls. Wind calling skills that can be explained, read, studied and practiced, but not necessarily matched very often by regular shooters like me. Who here earns a living in the NBA, even though we can all grasp the concepts. Jay’s one of the best wind readers and loaders there is, as it takes both.

For guys that do not excel at pointing the gun at the right part of the target in the switching wind, the closer you can stay toward the center, the better off you’re going to be. My only claim to offering “possibly” useful experience, is that I have worked on barrel and load combinations, which I have shared for what they are worth, that dramatically reduce the wind’s time to affect very high BC bullets.

I’m not the best messenger of the information because I am not aiming at the right part of the target when I shoot in the wind, and therefore don’t often end near the top.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Alright Jay, point taken, agree, it’s not a stand alone factor, but give me this, what would TR shooters say if a shooter proposed to add 150 FPS, by shooting a WSM with 200’s in TR? There’s not one guy or gal that would be ok with that.

If you tried to tell them that it might not help your score, I don’t see them accepting that.

No need to look at F-T/R, you can look at F-Open. F-Open shooters have the option to shoot larger cartridges than the 284 Win or Variants, but yet, winners pick those cartridges in lieu of bigger ones. Jay here has a 300 WSM, but yet, he favors his slower 284 Win with antiquated 180 hybrids. Why is that?
I have also had a 300 WSM and a 7mm Magnum, but I have had most of my success with 284 Shehane. I have recently started testing a 284 Winchester, which is 75-100 fps slower than my Shenane. I'm going the other way! lol