Simple question for our Australian members.
- Thread starter Nick Caprinolo
- Start date
B.S.!
You are a living, breathing human being. You have an absolute right to self preservation. If a miscreant threatens you, your wife, or children with lethal violence, you have every right to use lethal violence in your, or their, defense. If the miscreant has a machete, or a baseball bat, and is poised to strike, you would be justified in using what ever tool you had at hand to put him down, including a firearm. This is common law! Has the common law been completely abrogated in Australia? Do you not still have a right to be judged by your peers?
You have the right to defence and use of reasonable force. You are also not constrained to retaliation. If accused of unreasonable force, a jury will decide if your use of force was reasonable. In contrast, the test for, say, the stand-your-ground principle in certain States of the US is merely that you felt the use of force was reasonable. Basically, in English law countries you don't get to "take the law into your own hands." Thankfully, occasions involving use of deadly force for defence are relatively rare in the UK, Oz and NZ. Everything is dialled way down.
Equal force. Not lethal force. If death occurs you will be charged with manslaughter maximum or a lessor charge causing death. You will go to trial. You have become the criminal and the full weight of the law will be used against you. You have to prove you are not guilty the crown does not have to prove you guilty of the charges brought against you a lesser charge may be the courts finding, then you have to appeal that charge. The only people who win in this are the lawyers and the real criminals. You are left broke and beaten if you win. The criminal ( now you ) goes to jail where they are looked after better than our old people and the lawyers smile all the way to the bank.
Murray Brook
Silver $$ Contributor
So what you are saying is that in your country you are not innocent until proven guilty. Is that right?
Gentlemen I'm sorry that you are still subjects under English law !You may like it ,that is fine ,We rid ourselves of that a few years ago.BUT, make no mistake all those hard earned freedoms we have are not appreciated or used responsibly !
correct . When you are charged you are guilty of that charge. The court will ask you how you plead GUILTY or not guilty If you plead guilty you are sentenced if not guilty the saga starts. Before you get to court the lawyers put every thing they know about the case on the table, you are not allowed to bring something to court they don't know about. They will have that evidence removed.
Nick Caprinolo
Gold $$ Contributor
Now you understand why we rebelled and threw the British out of America and fight so hard to keep our 2nd amendment rights. So it sounds like if a guy punches me in the face, leaving no other injury, and I break his jaw or nose or even an arm, I have used too much force and am on my way to jail. What happens if he attacks me with a knife and I force his arm into his chest killing him in the struggle?
thank God we do not have a Crown here.
thank God we do not have a Crown here.
Tim, it sounds like a lovey place to live. However aren't you worried about those evil motorcycle gangs running down the highways? I did see Mad Max.
You are still innocent until proven guilty. Being charged with an offence is not deemed being guilty. You do not have the right, however, to use unreasonable force and will have to defend your actions in court. You don't get to blow someone away with the simple defence that you were scared. If you are really interested you can read the relevant case law or summaries thereof.
[Where the burden of proof shifts more so to the defendant is in things like the defence of 'diminished responsibility' in pushing the offence from murder to manslaughter.]
Just remember it's a hell of a lot easier to go deer stalking, driven bird shooting, water fowling etc in the UK than it is in the US. Wander down a country lane in Devon (or almost any part of country UK) in a January weekend and you'll hear the sound of shot left, right and centre and parties of 'guns' walking down the road with shotguns over the shoulder or cleaning their shotguns outside the town pub. Deer stalking close to urban environments is as common as it is in the moors of Scotland (even more so). And the coppers encourage the use of moderators. We had to jump through a few extra hoops to get our rifles - although a cup of tea with a copper from the local FET to make sure we weren't complete morons or beating our wives is not a great burden - but access to sport is dramatically easier. Even more so in NZ with a proliferation of game available (including some invasive Aussie species). If hunters aren't doing their job well enough in NZ they helicopter in 1080. In NZ you need to complete a simple safety course to get a FAC. The course is run by the NZ Mountain Safety Council i.e. by fellow hunters (not the government). They want people to pass and engage in the sport, but they also want people to be safe and responsible. If you can't pass the 20 question test at the end I certainly don't want you wandering around with a rifle. In both countries there's a strong 'hunting'* culture just not a culture of "I don't dial 911".
* In the UK, technically one hunts with hounds, shoots a shotgun and stalks with a rifle. In NZ we don't give a sh*t what you call it.
[Where the burden of proof shifts more so to the defendant is in things like the defence of 'diminished responsibility' in pushing the offence from murder to manslaughter.]
Just remember it's a hell of a lot easier to go deer stalking, driven bird shooting, water fowling etc in the UK than it is in the US. Wander down a country lane in Devon (or almost any part of country UK) in a January weekend and you'll hear the sound of shot left, right and centre and parties of 'guns' walking down the road with shotguns over the shoulder or cleaning their shotguns outside the town pub. Deer stalking close to urban environments is as common as it is in the moors of Scotland (even more so). And the coppers encourage the use of moderators. We had to jump through a few extra hoops to get our rifles - although a cup of tea with a copper from the local FET to make sure we weren't complete morons or beating our wives is not a great burden - but access to sport is dramatically easier. Even more so in NZ with a proliferation of game available (including some invasive Aussie species). If hunters aren't doing their job well enough in NZ they helicopter in 1080. In NZ you need to complete a simple safety course to get a FAC. The course is run by the NZ Mountain Safety Council i.e. by fellow hunters (not the government). They want people to pass and engage in the sport, but they also want people to be safe and responsible. If you can't pass the 20 question test at the end I certainly don't want you wandering around with a rifle. In both countries there's a strong 'hunting'* culture just not a culture of "I don't dial 911".
* In the UK, technically one hunts with hounds, shoots a shotgun and stalks with a rifle. In NZ we don't give a sh*t what you call it.
jimmymac
Jim McGregor
Hunting has nothing in common with a home break in. If the owner is home, then it is a home invasion. In a home invasion, the homeowner can only assume bad intent. Good guys don't break in to houses for a quick night cap and game of checkers. There is no such thing as unreasonable force if the safety of my family is at stake. Necessary force will be determined at that moment based upon the threat level. The asshole who broke in started the chain of events. Maybe he should have chosen differently and wouldn't have a bullet in him if he'd made appropriate life choices. It amazes me that criminals are given such leeway.
Adam in WI
Practically lives here
^^^^^^^^THIS!!!!
Nick Caprinolo
Gold $$ Contributor
Hunting in the US is a big deal but not the primary reason we own firearms. In some states, the schools and many manufactures shut down on the first day of deer season. Except in the large metropolitan areas, owning a firearm is a rite of passage.
I go to the range at least twice a week. I usually arrive two hours prior to opening so that I am assured a table there. Most of these folks never see a hunting license. At least half are shooting AR's of some type and many are home built. Starting one month prior to hunting season, the range becomes crowded with hunters who want to zero their rifles. You only see them there once a year.
Go to an indoor pistol range and you will always wait for a lane. Again these guys and girls never see the woods. They aren't there for that. Most are simple trying to hit a target center mass for protection . Silhouette targets are the target of choice for most.You will see an abundance of home made AR pistols there with 30 round mags. These guys love to spray and pray at a target. it's how the get their kicks. If that's what floats their boat, what is the harm.
As for self defense, many of our laws pertaining to self defense are specific to individual states. Most areas are "Home is my Castle," with no retreat necessity. How do you tell a 5/8, 140 lb man that the 6 ft 220 lb guy beating him, not to use deadly force if he has the means? What about hearing your 12 year old daughter screaming and finding her being raped in her own bed. Your weapon is a baseball bat and you wind up and bash his skull in. Now the police show up and take you to jail?
I spent years in law enforcement, many in the Homicide squad. If while at the scene, common sense determined that it was a justifiable homicide, we called the states attorney and gave them the facts and released the VICTIM. the victim being the person who killed what we called the suspect. Once in a while the case was taken to the Grand Jury, and then no indictment. But the victim never saw the inside of a jail cell. Sure if the case was in doubt, the victim was held in lie of bail and most times he or she was released on recognizance. Meaning all they had to do was swear under oath that they would come to court if and when summoned.
Most of our population is safe from crime. If you illuminate drug related crimes, it is my belief that this would be the safest country in the world. Stay out of drug areas and you have nothing to fear.
The highest crime statistics in this country are the areas where gun laws are the most stringent. It's laughable that most crime is committed in areas that have been declared "Gun Free Zones," with the dead found directly under the posted signs.
One question that I have not seen answered her is: What is the crime and homicide rate in drug the infested areas of Australia? Are guns prevalent in those areas?
The Bill of Rights in this country, is the basis for our government. It was not intended to protect the government. It was to protect the citizens from the government. The assumption is that simply being born, you are invested with these rights. Rights that no one can infringe upon.
Thank God for the good old USA!
I go to the range at least twice a week. I usually arrive two hours prior to opening so that I am assured a table there. Most of these folks never see a hunting license. At least half are shooting AR's of some type and many are home built. Starting one month prior to hunting season, the range becomes crowded with hunters who want to zero their rifles. You only see them there once a year.
Go to an indoor pistol range and you will always wait for a lane. Again these guys and girls never see the woods. They aren't there for that. Most are simple trying to hit a target center mass for protection . Silhouette targets are the target of choice for most.You will see an abundance of home made AR pistols there with 30 round mags. These guys love to spray and pray at a target. it's how the get their kicks. If that's what floats their boat, what is the harm.
As for self defense, many of our laws pertaining to self defense are specific to individual states. Most areas are "Home is my Castle," with no retreat necessity. How do you tell a 5/8, 140 lb man that the 6 ft 220 lb guy beating him, not to use deadly force if he has the means? What about hearing your 12 year old daughter screaming and finding her being raped in her own bed. Your weapon is a baseball bat and you wind up and bash his skull in. Now the police show up and take you to jail?
I spent years in law enforcement, many in the Homicide squad. If while at the scene, common sense determined that it was a justifiable homicide, we called the states attorney and gave them the facts and released the VICTIM. the victim being the person who killed what we called the suspect. Once in a while the case was taken to the Grand Jury, and then no indictment. But the victim never saw the inside of a jail cell. Sure if the case was in doubt, the victim was held in lie of bail and most times he or she was released on recognizance. Meaning all they had to do was swear under oath that they would come to court if and when summoned.
Most of our population is safe from crime. If you illuminate drug related crimes, it is my belief that this would be the safest country in the world. Stay out of drug areas and you have nothing to fear.
The highest crime statistics in this country are the areas where gun laws are the most stringent. It's laughable that most crime is committed in areas that have been declared "Gun Free Zones," with the dead found directly under the posted signs.
One question that I have not seen answered her is: What is the crime and homicide rate in drug the infested areas of Australia? Are guns prevalent in those areas?
The Bill of Rights in this country, is the basis for our government. It was not intended to protect the government. It was to protect the citizens from the government. The assumption is that simply being born, you are invested with these rights. Rights that no one can infringe upon.
Thank God for the good old USA!
Murray Brook
Silver $$ Contributor
I live in Canada and you are innocent until proven beyond a shadow of doubt that you are guilty. Now having said that you still have to use your head and determine what the danger is. You can use whatever force necessary to defend yourself and family., but for instance if the intruder panics and runs away like down the road you can't just open up and shoot him. In this case there was no danger to you or your family. We aren't as open as some states in the US but thank God we are still able to defend ourselves. But there must be a real danger to yourself or family. As stated earlier you don't get to shoot someone just because they offended you.
Nick Caprinolo
Gold $$ Contributor
That's a doctrine I can live with. It is mostly the same in the USA.
Mad max country is about 8 hours from where I live....
I’m near the east coast and they never made it that far
I do travel into mad max country but it’s loaded to the teeth with an off road buggy to shoot pigs- that has a mad max feel about it!
And what of the common law right of a jury of your peers?
In addition. A baseball bat is a deadly weapon in the hands of a person with deadly intent. Use of a firearm in defense of self and/or family would be equal force.
Nick Caprinolo
Gold $$ Contributor
Ah, but my 12 year old daughter plays softball. The bat was in her room. When I heard he cry out, I ran in, saw her being attacked and grabbed the first thing I could get my hands on, to force him away from her. No deadly intent and no premeditation.
You can not use a firearm for self defence. Equal force is baseball bat to baseball bat not bat to firearm. Intimidation is ok but how did you get it out of your locked safe so quickly.
Adam in WI
Practically lives here
God bless America
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