Who Knows the 222 Remington?

[AccelR8]

OK range report. Began shooting today at 11:30. Temperature was 46, wind was out of the Southwest, about 4 o'clock relative to my position and the target, gusting to 18 mph., unable to get a sustained wind reading. Was fairly still at times. Finished shooting at 12:45. 45 degress, sustained wind 9 mph gusts to 19 mph. Still from SW. This is the best conditions to be expected for the next 7 to 10 days according to the forecast.

The attached pictures tell the story. Any questions, I'll be glad to answer. The powder is H322, and the charge weights go up in .3 grain increments from left to right. The top row is 53 grain SMKs, the bottom is 53 grain V-Max's.

One thing I did note is that of the top 5 targets, the 53 gr. SMKs, the last shot in each group printed the lowest on the target. I shot all of these round-robin.

After two shots I had high hopes for target number five. After the third shot on no. five I went “Doh!” That was a flier/I pulled that one (not really).

Also of note is the smallest group, .375 inch, had the second largest (and not much behind the largest) ES and SD. Of course these are only three shot groups, so not much stock can be placed in any of this data although group size and average velocity may be a starting point. I think. Open to advice.

The order of the day included fishing the empties out of the 788's smallish e-port. Every case bounced off the scope turret and back into the port, backwards, and laid on top of the mag. The easiest way to get them out was remove the mag. I tried shooting with the mag left out, thinking they'd drop out by themselves but no. Most of them then wedged in the port sideways. I'm going to turn the scope 90 degrees and swap the turret knobs. Just have to remember right will then be left. Feeding from the mag was flawless, and so was just placing the loaded rounds into the e-port and letting them lay on top of the mag.

 

[AccelR8]

Blue circles are approximate group centers.

 

[Sparky570]

LOL,,,that 4198 will never work with out shiny Federal Nickel plated brass and Reminton 7 1/2's,,

 

[AlNyhus]

1.- Use wind flags
2.- Shorten the ejector spring by 2 coils

 

[rangertim]

A caution for you on the Wilson barrels, the ones used by Cooper are lapped, not all Wilson barrels are - something you may want to check on if you do decide to order one.

drover

Mine was Laped and interior looked as good as a $300 Barrel looking at it with my $50.00 Tes bore scope, Shoots very good !! I purchased it Thur ragged hole.

 

[AccelR8]

More range report; picture tells the story. Looks like something is happening at 23.8 grains. Further testing is to come. Temperature was about 44 degrees F. Wind negligible.
Brass is PMC 223 converted to 222 primers are WSR, the rest is of the info. is in the pic.

 

[AccelR8]

According to my wife...when I'm loading ammo, she calls it "making bullets." Testing at the range she calls "trying to see if his bullets work." When she sees these targets she asks "how come you never hit the orange?"

 

[wgg]

Funny, sounds familiar.

 

[snert]

Try some 50 grain SPT style bullets...sierra or Speer. You may be surprised how well they shoot. 19.5 grains IMR4198, standard primer, or try some 322.

I think you are seeing a preference for lighter bullets, and the old spire points are very forgiving, accurate too.

 

[pintopete]

AccelR8, what SNERT said! If you haven’t already done so, start an Excel spread sheet for yourself to document your loading, results and other data. I would also suggest making an Excel page for the bullet data. You can find the physical dimensions of most all .224 bullets on either the manufacturer’s page or elsewhere on the internet. I suggest that you pay close attention to the length of the bullets you choose and shoot, especially for the .222. Some say they can accurately shoot 55gr bullets from a 1:14 twist. I have not been so fortunate. Forget 60’s IMO. Feel free to try, but I have not had success. Likewise, my 22/250, even with the higher velocity, will shoot more accurately with 50’s than 55’s. H322, and N133 are great powders for the .222. Of course so is IMR4198 and H4198. At one point in time, a common accuracy testing load used 4895. Bear in mind, as others have said, that the case volume of a .222 is modest. In the old Remington ads, you will observe that they were illustrating pushing a 50gr bullet at 3,200 fps. When designed and marketed, heavier bullets were generally intended for cartridges with a larger powder capacity, so that they had the velocity for explosive hits on varmints. Not to say that you can’t try. Also, some bullet manufacturers have both thick and thin jacketed .224 Varmint/game bullets. Sierra is one. They intend you to use the thin jacketed bullets in modest velocity .224 rifles, and thicker jacketed bullets in higher velocity .224 rifles (22/250 & .220 Swift). Again, they do this for appropriate expansion for varmints. Really has less importance for targets unless you over rotate a thin skinned bullet. As much as we all try to provide benevolent, sound advice here, try different things for yourself. You’ll learn a lot along the way.

Best of luck, Peter.

 

[AccelR8]

Today's results (picture attached). Results from several days ago had 23.8 grains turning in the best group (by far) and the lowest SD and ES of all loads tried. The jump on all loads was .090, just chosen because that allowed .224 of the bullet shank to be in the neck. Avg. velocity of the 23.8 gr. load was 3,466.

Today, same weather conditions, colder by only 5 degrees, 23.8 grains with an .080 and .040 jump, no good. 1.371 and 1.162 inches respectively. 3,475, 3,482 fps respectively. Best group today was 23.7 grains and a jump of .080. 3,414 fps.

Not sure what to make of all this. I think, while it shows the gun may be capable of pretty good precision, it might be finicky.

All these are shot round robin.

 

[Mark W]

Not sure what to make of all this. I think, while it shows the gun may be capable of pretty good precision, it might be finicky.

Whenever I’ve had a finicky rifle it usually turned out to be something with the set up. Skinny sporter stocks and barrel contours are always harder for me to shoot consistently. Bedding, barrel free float, action screw torque, and trigger issues have all bitten me in the past.

Are you using a good repeatable bench setup for your testing?

 

[AccelR8]

Whenever I’ve had a finicky rifle it usually turned out to be something with the set up. Skinny sporter stocks and barrel contours are always harder for me to shoot consistently. Bedding, barrel free float, action screw torque, and trigger issues have all bitten me in the past.

Are you using a good repeatable bench setup for your testing?

Bipod and rear "squeeze" bag. I don't own a machine rest or a proper rear bag, mainly because that's not how I shoot in the field.

I keep after the action screws, I find they do loosen and need tightening. 35 inch pounds is what I've been tightening too.

The factory trigger has very little creep and breaks clean, but it is h-e-a-v-y! For sure the heaviest rifle trigger I own. But the fact that the rifle CAN turn in a good group makes me think I am managing the trigger at least to some degree. I plan to modify the trigger using the instructions out there on the web. At this point I can't see spending over a hundred bucks on a trigger for a rifle that's long out of production (difficult to resell the trigger) before I am convinced this thing is going to be a shooter.

I cannot find 4198 locally. Or 4895 for that matter. I have a little bit of Benchmark left over, and a handful of 50 grain Varmint Nightmare soft points. I'll try something with those, and my H322. Varget has shown great consistency as far as SD and ES but velocities are low (2,700) and accuracy is in the 1.25 MOA realm.

 

[drover]

I am seeing a lot of Red Flags popping up.

Your groups do not look too bad for "field accuracy" but since you are shooting off a bipod that raises a red flag to me. Your groups have vertical in most every one, that is indicative of "shouldering" the bipod - putting inconsistent shoulder pressure on it. An easy check - get some 2x6's or something similar, put a couple of towels on top of them and use that as a front rest, chances are you will see the vertical go away, if it doesn't then look for a bedding issue.

Don't obsess over ED and SD, they can be false indicators as far as short range accuracy. Take your best group, using that as a baseline move your bullet out to as close to the lands as possible without jamming into them. Shoot a 5 shot group, if it looks good you are home free - if you are not satisfied seat the bullet .005 deeper and shoot another group. I have found a couple of rifles that like as much as .040 jump but in most cases closer to the lands gives the best accuracy.

Rifle magazine had the article on modifying the 788 trigger decades ago (70's maybe), it is still floating around on the internet - it is very simple and with the right spring it is possible to get the trigger to a safe 1 lb or less.

A lilttle nail polish on the action screw threads will solve the backing out issue.

Before shooting another group make sure that your base mount screws are tight and that the front mount screw is not hitting the barrel. Of course you should check your scope ring screws also. Which brings up the next comment - are you sure that the scope is good?

Also you have not mentioned if you are using a wind flag - wind can easily cause that much vertical.

You have not said if the rifles action is properly bedded or if the barrel is touching. When I see this much conisistent vertical there are a lot places to point the finger the only solution is to eliminate possible causes one by one.

Maybe I missed it but I don't recall seeing what bullet you are shooting - I recommend a 50 gr Sierra Bliltzking, Matchking or a Nosler Ballistic Tip. I have never had a 222 or 223 that these bullets did not give great accuracy in.


drover

 

[Brians356]

Your groups do not look too bad for "field accuracy" but since you are shooting off a bipod that raises a red flag to me. Your groups have vertical in most every one, that is indicative of "shouldering" the bipod - putting inconsistent shoulder pressure on it.

Is there a delineable technique for shooting off a bipod which eliminates adverse effect on vertical?

I ask for two reasons: 1. I have shot my best groups off a bipod (on a concrete bench) and I'd like to know what I must have been doing right but was unaware of. And 2. If I'm not mistaken there are popular competitive disciplines shot off bipods, so I assume there exists some methodology which proves successful.
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[AccelR8]

Drover, thanks.

The reason I include ES and SD is I've seen threads (can't remember where) in which respondents have said “We can't help you without data. Groups mean nothing...” so I include it just to provide the information for those who feel it's important. I mainly look at velocity averages.

I have the article on modifying the 788 trigger. Just need to find the time. And my 6-38 tap. Or more likely, order a new one.

Bedding, scope mount, rings, should all be good. As far as the scope, well, how can one be sure it's good? It's always been good. It seems to track well, there's no obvious indication that it's bad but well I guess the only way to know is try another. But my last target, all those shots were done round-robin so I think it would be hard to get the results I got, if you think about it, with a scope that won't hold zero.

I've tried 55 grain SPSX, 40 grain Nosler Varmageddon, 52 grain SMK. Going to try a few leftover 50 grain Midsouth Varmint Nightmare bullets. I have 29 of them. I have enough Benchmark for about 40 cartridges, I have most of a pound of H322 and most of a pound of CFE223. I keep looking for 4198 in the shops but no luck so far.

 

[Brians356]

Drover, thanks.

The reason I include ES and SD is I've seen threads (can't remember where) in which respondents have said “We can't help you without data. Groups mean nothing...”

Fair enough. Then I would ask those chaps "Where are the chronographs positioned to determine benchrest match winners?".
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[drover]

Is there a delineable technique for shooting off a bipod which eliminates adverse effect on vertical?

I ask for two reasons: 1. I have shot my best groups off a bipod (on a concrete bench) and I'd like to know what I must have been doing right but was unaware of. And 2. If I'm not mistaken there are popular competitive disciplines shot off bipods, so I assume there exists some methodology which proves successful.
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It is notoriously difficult to shoot "benchrest" groups from a bipod.

Reasons -

1 - It is very difficult to put the same amount of shoulder pressure against the buttstock each and every time. Also when using a bipod and trying to use a less than stable rear rest it is difficult to put consistent cheek pressure on the stock, for best "benchrest" sized groups cheek pressure will be light to non-existent but most always be exactly the same as should shoulder pressure.

2 - Since you haven't stated what type of bipod you are using if it is a Harris or similar Chinese knock-off the legs are flilmsy. They are a fine bipod for field expediency but not something to be used to shoot small groups.

3 - Once again assuming you are shooting a bipod with rubber feet they are very prone to skipping and bouncing on hard surfaces such as concrete benches. If you are insistent on using a bipod at least put a thick towel type material under it to lessen the bounce.

4 - I can't explain your best group except to say that if it is not repeatable then it was a fluke. Sort of like the billfold group that every shooter carries around.

5 - Yes, there are some disciplines which are shot from bipods, most of them involve hitting a gong rather than making shooting groups. The only group shooting I am aware which uses bipods for groups is F-Class which is bench rest on your belly. The bipods they use are more like a benchrest with extended legs, not a hunting type benchrest.

It will not cost you anything to try a more stable platform and see if it helps - if it does then great, if it doesn't then you have eliminated an item from the possible causes of your vertical groups.

drover

 

[AccelR8]

Drover, You do realize Bryan365 asked about bipod technique and not me, the original poster, right? In any event, I appreciate the good advice.

 

[Brians356]

It is notoriously difficult to shoot "benchrest" groups from a bipod.

Reasons -

1 - It is very difficult to put the same amount of shoulder pressure against the buttstock each and every time. Also when using a bipod and trying to use a less than stable rear rest it is difficult to put consistent cheek pressure on the stock, for best "benchrest" sized groups cheek pressure will be light to non-existent but most always be exactly the same as should shoulder pressure.

2 - Since you haven't stated what type of bipod you are using if it is a Harris or similar Chinese knock-off the legs are flilmsy. They are a fine bipod for field expediency but not something to be used to shoot small groups.

3 - Once again assuming you are shooting a bipod with rubber feet they are very prone to skipping and bouncing on hard surfaces such as concrete benches. If you are insistent on using a bipod at least put a thick towel type material under it to lessen the bounce.

4 - I can't explain your best group except to say that if it is not repeatable then it was a fluke. Sort of like the billfold group that every shooter carries around.

5 - Yes, there are some disciplines which are shot from bipods, most of them involve hitting a gong rather than making shooting groups. The only group shooting I am aware which uses bipods for groups is F-Class which is bench rest on your belly. The bipods they use are more like a benchrest with extended legs, not a hunting type benchrest.

It will not cost you anything to try a more stable platform and see if it helps - if it does then great, if it doesn't then you have eliminated an item from the possible causes of your vertical groups.

drover

@drover, thanks for the detailed response. My follow-ups:

1. I do not use an unstable rear support, I use an good Protektor rear bag. I do just barely touch the buttstock with the shoulder. I do not apply any cheek pressure.

2. I use a short Harris bipod on the bench. One problem may be that the sling swivel is near the front end of the stock.

3. Thanks for the tip re rubber feet on concrete.

4. I'm pretty sure I said "best groups" (plural), not a one-off.

5. I no longer use the bipod, after reading other posts about bipods being problematic. I use a conventional front rest now. But I saw comments here and elsewhere about proper bipod technique, hence my question. If I learned more about bipod technique I might go back to using one.
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