Custom FL Dies - What company?

[jimmymac]

Harrell's will do a 30 BRA dies as well.

How's that chambering working out for guys Alex? Thanks. Don't want to derail this thread too much, but this interests me as a newer score shooter.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Too soon to say much. Would need to get one into the hands of a top score shooter. 2 reasons I did it, 40 degree shoulder, I hate trimming brass, and Mr. Robinett told me he wished the 30br held one more grain of powder.

 

[F Class John]

I’ll just throw this out there but I’m a huge fan of. Newlon custom dies. They come as a blank and you have your gunsmith chamber them. Great dies and great company. The seating die can even be ordered with a Mitotoyo micrometer on it. I’ve had plenty of Wilson and they’re great does too but for true custom I’m sold on the Newlon dies.

 

[avidflyer]

I’ll just throw this out there but I’m a huge fan of. Newlon custom dies. They come as a blank and you have your gunsmith chamber them. Great dies and great company. The seating die can even be ordered with a Mitotoyo micrometer on it. I’ve had plenty of Wilson and they’re great does too but for true custom I’m sold on the Newlon dies.

No comparison....made one for my 308 great seater

 

[Sandstorm]

Anyone use Neil Jones products.? or have any experience with his work.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

There's nothing mystical about a die. They have a very simple job to do and if it's made to the right size relative to the chamber/fired brass, it should do that job well.
Also, there's nothing wrong with going with a custom die but it makes more sense to me to have the chamber reamer ground to work with off the shelf type s bushing dies whenever possible.

Don't over think this. I can very much appreciate nice machining but that's not the issue here. The only real concern is the die is straight, after heat treat and that it reduces the case size a very specific amount..and again, this can change during heat treat with some materials.

I think the op answered his own question in regard to his runout troubles when he said that he was reducing neck diameter by .006.

Again, nothing against custom dies or the makers. Hell, I am a former die maker. It's just an unnecessary expense when you can almost always use a std type s die and get the same results, if your reamer is properly thought out and made to work with said die.
Custom dies have their place but imo, not so much, when you can control chamber dimensions so they yield brass that is properly sized with a standard die.
This isn't rocket surgery.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

There's nothing mystical about a die. They have a very simple job to do and if it's made to the right size relative to the chamber/fired brass, it should do that job well.
Also, there's nothing wrong with going with a custom die but it makes more sense to me to have the chamber reamer ground to work with off the shelf type s bushing dies whenever possible.

Don't over think this. I can very much appreciate nice machining but that's not the issue here. The only real concern is the die is straight, after heat treat and that it reduces the case size a very specific amount..and again, this can change during heat treat with some materials.

I think the op answered his own question in regard to his runout troubles when he said that he was reducing neck diameter by .006.

Again, nothing against custom dies or the makers. Hell, I am a former die maker. It's just an unnecessary expense when you can almost always use a std type s die and get the same results, if your reamer is properly thought out and made to work with said die.
Custom dies have their place but imo, not so much, when you can control chamber dimensions so they yield brass that is properly sized with a standard die.
This isn't rocket surgery.

I agree with everything you're saying. That said, I think you ideally want about .003-.004 neck clearance in a .308...at least that's what I see a lot of people running.

If you don't want to turn Lapua palma brass, that's going to put you at a .341-.342 neck, and you'll need to be sizing down with a .335 or .336 bushing to hit .001" interference fit....so it's somewhat unavoidable... You're going to be sizing that neck down .005-.006 regardless.

I could be missing something though...probably am. It may not be rocket surgery, but I make Forrest Gump look like Albert Einstein.

 

[Jdne5b]

Did using a bushing die+mandrel increase your concentricity over just using a bushing die?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

It may be worth doing it in two steps, sizing the necks down .002-.003 at a time. I really don't know how that will work but I don't think a floating bushing is your problem. They simply work too well in too many instances. IME and what you have described, runout usually happens during sizing, not seating, so that's where I'd focus. I know one guy that runs a straight piece of brass into the busing by raising the ram and then locks the bushing tightly solid. He feels like it helps but I'm skeptical of the benefits. But it would make it act like a one piece die, fwiw.

 

[dave@aDave]

Anyone use Neil Jones products.? or have any experience with his work.

I really like these. Work like a charm. I sent him 20 pieces of brass for samples. He made me an extra shoulder /neck insert that was 0.001 different size for different brass.
At this time of year Mr. Jones is probably in Florida. He returns in the Spring.
Give him a call, write a letter, or send an email. If you call him he will ask questions and take the time to answer questions. Place your order. Sit back and wait.
https://www.neiljones.com

 

[Sandstorm]

Thanks for the info dave@aDave

 

[memilanuk]

@MikeMcCasland I have used Redding Type S F/L bushing dies for a long time in a number of different calibers, and they're still my default 'go-to' option for the most part. I'm comfortable with them and the results they give me.

Mainly for the sake of trying something different, I switched my .308 FTR ammo to a honed F/L die this past season. My match brass is typically turned to 0.014" necks, and I typically run a .333 or .334 bushing, followed by running over an expander mandrel. Between annealing, the bushing die, and the mandrel, the necks come out at 0.305" ( .305- pin gauge slips in with a little friction, .3055 doesn't go in at all). So I sent a Forster 'National Match' F/L die in to get the neck honed to 0.333".

It seems to work pretty much exactly the same as the bushing die I was using... Which I guess is a good thing

The only real difference I've noticed is that the brass which had been thru 4-5 cycles with the bushing die... apparently has a teensy little donut at the base of the neck, as my 0.305- pin gauge goes down and stops, whereas a 0.3045 pin will slip in all the way. Whether that would have developed anyway, or if it's a consequence of the bushing die... dunno. It's down far enough relative to the bearing surface of a 200.20X bullet that it's mostly academic at this point.

HTH,

Monte

 

[natdscott]

Forsters most custom handmade offering wont be half as good as an off the shelf whidden. Whidden is the only one that will use your print or your 3x fired brass to make a perfect die- not just one that will size enough. The best thing is getting a resize reamer made and having your gunsmith ream a newlon blank and get it hardened but thats serious dinero

Neil Jones?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Neil Jones?

If he still does it like last time i got one it was with a resize reamer i thought

 

[dave@aDave]

Neil Jones?

Neil Jones makes your dies from measuring your brass that has been fired 3 times. You would have to ask him about making dies from a reamer.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

@MikeMcCasland I have used Redding Type S F/L bushing dies for a long time in a number of different calibers, and they're still my default 'go-to' option for the most part. I'm comfortable with them and the results they give me.

Mainly for the sake of trying something different, I switched my .308 FTR ammo to a honed F/L die this past season. My match brass is typically turned to 0.014" necks, and I typically run a .333 or .334 bushing, followed by running over an expander mandrel. Between annealing, the bushing die, and the mandrel, the necks come out at 0.305" ( .305- pin gauge slips in with a little friction, .3055 doesn't go in at all). So I sent a Forster 'National Match' F/L die in to get the neck honed to 0.333".

It seems to work pretty much exactly the same as the bushing die I was using... Which I guess is a good thing

The only real difference I've noticed is that the brass which had been thru 4-5 cycles with the bushing die... apparently has a teensy little donut at the base of the neck, as my 0.305- pin gauge goes down and stops, whereas a 0.3045 pin will slip in all the way. Whether that would have developed anyway, or if it's a consequence of the bushing die... dunno. It's down far enough relative to the bearing surface of a 200.20X bullet that it's mostly academic at this point.

HTH,

Monte

Monte,

Appreciate the post, as always. I agree on the type-s, I've run them in a lot of things and they generally work well for me, however I'm not terribly thrilled with mine in .308.

That's unfortunate about your Forster, I'd kind of hoped to hear it had shown some marked improvement.

My plan at this point is to do two things:
1.) Replace my bushing with a Whidden (set to arrive today), and resetup the die.
2.) Send off some brass, and get a .336 Whidden FL die made, as well as a custom bushing FL sizer.

Brass comes out of the gun damn near perfect (as perfect as you can get unturned brass to read). That leads me to believe I either have a die that is somehow 'cockeyed" slightly in the press, a die that's not manufactured straight, or maybe a bushing out of round.

Knowing how much I'm sizing down, I can accept some run-out. Across a batch of 100 rounds, even my best performing dies yield loaded rounds with bullet ogive TIR somewhere around .0005-.0015. I'm totally cool with that kind of result. I'm just trying to get away from .002-.003 with every 5th-6th one being .006 TIR.

Either way, a re-configured die, or new dies should fix it.

I'll report back on results once I get it all setup.

 

[KenOath]

Gents,

I think I'm in the market for some custom dies and want some opinions.

I'll start with some background. I've had .308s in the past, however I'm just starting to dip my toes into the 'serious end' of FTR. Most recently I had a reamer made by JGS, and a couple of barrels chambered from it; I've got 2-4 firings on some palma brass from both barrels, and don't have any extraction issues etc (i.e. my reamer design wasn't complete crap, and was cut correctly).

In the past (with this and other .308s) I've alternated between using expanderless FL bushing dies, expanderless FL dies/mandreling up, and FL dies with adjustable expanders. I haven't been 100% satisfied with any option from a concentricity/consistency perspective. .

FWIW - I'm using a .342nk, and using a .336 bushing to give me .001" tension.

It feels like at this point the natural progression is to go with a custom FL die.

That said, it looks like Forster and Whidden are the only two die companies that really promote this as a service. I know Warner Tool does it, but I'm not interested in a $600 FL die that I have to shim to adjust shoulder bump.

Is there anyone I'm missing?

Of those, anyone have any preference over the other?

Unless there's a bunch of anti-Forster sentiment, I think I could get two forsters for the price of a single Widden, and have them honed ~.001 apart to basically use like you would a bushing die (except without run-out).

Any thoughts or feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

The Wilson FL Bushing dies are machined very nicely and size smooth as butter. Fit a PMA micro adjuster to it makes It even more of a pleasure to use..Not a custom die but I’m getting perfect sizing at base and shoulder on my 284..

 

[urbanrifleman]

The Wilson FL Bushing dies are machined very nicely and size smooth as butter. Fit a PMA micro adjuster to it makes It even more of a pleasure to use..Not a custom die but I’m getting perfect sizing at base and shoulder on my 284..

Yah that Wilson might have to be my next purchase. I trust Wilson. Others not so much.

 

[memilanuk]

@MikeMcCasland are you floating your dies in the press?

 

[MikeMcCasland]

@MikeMcCasland are you floating your dies in the press?

No. Put in a .010 Redding shell holder.
Raise ram
Tighten die down until very slight contact
Lower ram, tighten die additional ~1/32nd of a turn
Raise ram
Tighten lock ring
Adjust shell holders until desired bump is achieved.
Record shell holder & bump on ammo box.
Shoot Xs