neck or full length sizing ?

[Bc'z]

Please allow me to stir the pot, if neck sizing is so terrible, why does everybody and his cousin make neck only sizing dies? Some are high tech with changeable bushings, micrometers, and come with a high price tag, but I keep seeing them in all of the reloading catalogs, so someone must be buying them. Is it a difference in our disciplines, with some being casual shooters and others being competitors? I do know that if I F/L size over and over eventually the heads coming off, anybody else, or is it just me?

I joined to try and find some answers, and I have, lots of good information here, but topics like this, with such a vast difference of opinion leave me more confused and even doubting what I do.

By the way, I don't really care for the video myself, he makes some very valid points and I enjoyed it the first few times I saw it, even though he is over animated and his way is the only way, but it has grown old by people over sharing.

I've shot my smallest group with a factory rifle and neck sized ammo, .136"
Standard rcbs die back out 3/4 turn.

 

[Uncle Ed]

I found after testing .223 and .308 dies that neck sizing dies produced more neck runout because the case body was not fully supported in relation to the case neck. A full length resized case has the case body and neck supported and held in alignment. At the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get more concentric cases with non-bushing full length dies.

 

[Homerange]

I found after testing .223 and .308 dies that neck sizing dies produced more neck runout because the case body was not fully supported in relation to the case neck.

I respect your input and study your posts yet in this case you don't share what NS dies you used to come to these findings, why ? <confused>

 

[fatelvis]

Why? Because he's right and that melts your cheese?

I personally don’t like the way he conveys his message. He sounds very pushy, egotistical, and seems confrontational. I’ve learned to walk away from people who come off that way. You asked, I answered.

 

[fatelvis]

No because when someone is ranting wide eyed in my face, I have an overwhelming urge to punch them.
FWIW I already stopped neck sizing and it wasn't because of Cortina's video.

Bc, I didn’t want to say it, but that’s exactly the reaction it evokes in me.

 

[DirtySteve]

I am both Luke Skywalker and I agree on this...

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I respect your input and study your posts yet in this case you don't share what NS dies you used to come to these findings, why ? <confused>

I wish i had a nickel for every time hes posted that video or those forster die commercials

 

[Bc'z]

On what brass cycle?
Does that accuracy repeat cycle to cycle?
Do they ever get tight to chamber? If so, at what cycle?

Remington 700 cdl w/j lock, 4x16 vortex viper.
Smallest group was with lapua brass 2nd firing., 3 shots factory sporter, 2# trigger,
Target confirmed by gunsmith. 185 vld
Same rifle umpteen loadings RP brass
Never annealed. 5 shots under .25", followed by 4 shots under .25". 185 vld hunter.
Rifle is at gunsmith now installing a 4 groove 1-11 Krieger, timney 510, and bedding in a McMillan edge fill.
Wonder how small I can shoot with it now?
Not being argumentative with you Donovan,
But I've learned alot from you, Toby Dusty, Ned, Ed, Boyd and theist goes on in crafting the very best ammo I can, and proper shooting techniques.
All because they say it cant be done.....
Dont tell me what I cant do is my response.
Shot during seating depth test.
Using up the last of my vld hunters
How many x's?
Looks like yes it is repeatable.
Thanks for the lessons everyone, after this rifle is put back together I'm thinking about putting together a f class rig.

 

[rogina]

I've shot my smallest group with a factory rifle and neck sized ammo, .136"
Standard rcbs die back out 3/4 turn.

That is partial resizing, not neck seizing.

 

[Bc'z]

That is partial resizing, not neck seizing.

Yes it partially sized the neck about 2/3 of it.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I personally don’t like the way he conveys his message. He sounds very pushy, egotistical, and seems confrontational. I’ve learned to walk away from people who come off that way. You asked, I answered.

I understand. I know Erik and that's why I think the video is so funny. But I can understand your point of view.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I will also add, that I am thankful for the fact there are no inflated egos or opinionated people in competition circles and especially on this site.

Now, where is that tooth fairy hiding?

 

[dmoran]

@Bc'z
Basically no 2nd firing brass is in need of full-sizing yet (a bad example to compare from - IME).
Even 3rd firing is to soon to compare from.

What indifference do you see in case measurements at the expansion line, shoulder, and case headspace from say 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th firing brass?
Or from a same cycle, but a long string, where the chamber was subjected to wide range of temperature variation?

On your targets, the fly'ers you blame on yourself. How do you know they were you, and not the load?
IME - anytime you have variance in brass specifications, fly'ers like those in your targets can be expected and/or to blame.
IME - anytime a bolt closes harder on one round more then another, again fly'ers can be expected, and a product of neck sizing only.

Also, why do you look so hard at 100yd results for high BC VLD's like your using. Distance is what there designed for and what will tell you the true tales of the loads (100yd results tell me very little what to expect down range with long, heavy bullets).

At one time I also neck sized only (like many people have at one time or another). But soon after learned better and seen the light and advantages to F/L sizing every time.

 

[Uncle Ed]

I respect your input and study your posts yet in this case you don't share what NS dies you used to come to these findings, why ? <confused>

Below just some of the .223 dies I tested, and the neck sizing dies had more neck runout than the full length dies.

I've shot my smallest group with a factory rifle and neck sized ammo, .136"
Standard rcbs die back out 3/4 turn.

You are partial full length resizing and the full length die is supporting the case body and neck and holding them in alignment. A neck sizing die does not hold or support the case body and the case neck can move and not be in alignment with the case body after sizing. If you take a full length die and remove the expander the case will be as concentric as it ever will be.

This is what the rat turd in the violin case means, the full length resized case has wiggle room to let the bullet be self aligning with the axis of the bore.

 

[Straightshooter1]

This is what the rat turd in the violin case means, the full length resized case has wiggle room to let the bullet be self aligning with the axis of the bore.

Hmmm???

That wiggle room lets the cartridge sit slightly out of alignment with the bore's axis as will be the bullet (assuming it's concentric). Just how much depends on the dimensions of the chamber and the cartridge. Therefore, the only way the bullet is really going to be able to self align perfectly with the axis of the bore is if it's touching or jamming the lands. . . particularly if there's a lot of slop in the chamber. Huh???

 

[rebs]

Below just some of the .223 dies I tested, and the neck sizing dies had more neck runout than the full length dies.

You are partial full length resizing and the full length die is supporting the case body and neck and holding them in alignment. A neck sizing die does not hold or support the case body and the case neck can move and not be in alignment with the case body after sizing. If you take a full length die and remove the expander the case will be as concentric as it ever will be.

This is what the rat turd in the violin case means, the full length resized case has wiggle room to let the bullet be self aligning with the axis of the bore.

is this with the fl die backed out 3/4 of a turn ?

 

[Uncle Ed]

Hmmm???

That wiggle room lets the cartridge sit slightly out of alignment with the bore's axis as will be the bullet (assuming it's concentric). Just how much depends on the dimensions of the chamber and the cartridge. Therefore, the only way the bullet is really going to be able to self align perfectly with the axis of the bore is if it's touching or jamming the lands. . . particularly if there's a lot of slop in the chamber. Huh???

Below German Salazar answering a question about "partial full length resizing, and the benefits of full length resizing.

"a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway.

In conclusion, I believe that allowing the bullet to find a relatively stress-free alignment in the throat by full length sizing (including the neck) and turning necks to enhance concentricity gives the bullet the best probability of a well-aligned start into the rifling."

The Rifleman's Journal
Germán A. Salazar

 

[Bc'z]

@Bc'z
Basically no 2nd firing brass is in need of full-sizing yet (a bad example to compare from - IME).
Even 3rd firing is to soon to compare from.

What indifference do you see in case measurements at the expansion line, shoulder, and case headspace from say 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th firing brass?
Or from a same cycle, but a long string, where the chamber was subjected to wide range of temperature variation?

On your targets, the fly'ers you blame on yourself. How do you know they were you, and not the load?
IME - any time you have variance in brass specifications, fly'ers like those in your targets can be expected and/or to blame.
IME - anytime a bolt closes harder on one round more then another, again fly'ers can be expected, and a product of neck sizing only.

Also, why do you look so hard at 100yd results for high BC VLD's like your using. Distance is what there designed for and what will tell you the true tales of the loads (100yd results tell me very little what to expect down range with long, heavy bullets).

At one time I also neck sized only (like many people have at one time or another). But soon after learned better and seen the light and advantages to F/L sizing every time.

Ok a lot to look at here.
I get that 2 firings are not in need of full length sizing. As for the RP brass with multiple firings, that I never measured base to datum.
Lapua brass has grown .002-.0025 after 3 firings.
I have since started keeping track of case growth and times fired.
Still not weight sorting or checking volume.
As for long strings of firing I've never shot more than 5 rounds in a string, being a factory sporter and all, even I'm not that dumb.
Flyers I know for a fact I pulled the 3rd shot on the right hand group of 4.
Have shot this same load at 300 into an inch group.
Flyers could also be contributed to not all the same lot of brass as it was derived from factory ammo, and never sorted by weight.
So is a 30 06 case with a fair amount of body taper fully supported when die is backed out 3/4 turn?

 

[Straightshooter1]

Below German Salazar answering a question about "partial full length resizing, and the benefits of full length resizing.

"a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway.

In conclusion, I believe that allowing the bullet to find a relatively stress-free alignment in the throat by full length sizing (including the neck) and turning necks to enhance concentricity gives the bullet the best probability of a well-aligned start into the rifling."

The Rifleman's Journal
Germán A. Salazar

Have read some about "partial neck sizing", which is supposed to align the bullet best (addressing that point I've highlighted in red above) as the unsized part of the case neck fits firmly in chamber's neck. I've just started to experiment with this to see if I can find any noticeable difference with my factory gun. Curiosity often gets the best of me. For sure, it does make for a little firmness in locking the bolt down.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Have read some about "partial neck sizing", which is supposed to align the bullet best (addressing that point I've highlighted in red above) as the unsized part of the case neck fits firmly in chamber's neck. I've just started to experiment with this to see if I can find any noticeable difference with my factory gun. Curiosity often gets the best of me. For sure, it does make for a little firmness in locking the bolt down.

One point you are missing about neck or partial neck sizing, is if the case has unequal wall thickness it warps and becomes egg shaped. Meaning a completely full length resized case will reduce the body diameter more and give the body more clearance and reduce the chance of the warped case steering the bullet out of alignment with the bore. (the rat turd in the violin case)

And if the case does warp the base of the neck sized case will no longer be 90 degrees to the axis of the bore. And this will cause the rear of the case contacting the bolt face to be tilted or tipped and out of alignment with the bore.

The full length resized case with shoulder bump will have head clearance or air space between the rear of the case and bolt face. Meaning a warped full length resized case will have less effect on bullet alignment. This is what German Salazar was trying to get across, meaning the base of the case and the case body has no steering effect on the bullet.