Pros/Cons to gluing an action

[Toby Bradshaw]

You're saying the 1.355" cylindrical, single shot action is going to bend, before the piece of wood or fiberglass with a skim coat of epoxy bedding?

Both are going to bend, inversely proportional to their relative stiffness.

 

[jghoghunter]

It does not get posted here, but 1"s are not lucky groups anymore. Theres guys consistently shooting groups in the 1"s almost every test session. Im not sure guys realize how small these rifles can shoot at 1k. You can learn things from a 1" gun you cant from a 3" gun.

How many shots?

 

[rwj]

It does not get posted here, but 1"s are not lucky groups anymore. Theres guys consistently shooting groups in the 1"s almost every test session. Im not sure guys realize how small these rifles can shoot at 1k. You can learn things from a 1" gun you cant from a 3" gun.

Yikes... that’s simultaneously amazing and depressing!

 

[gunnermhr]

It does not get posted here, but 1"s are not lucky groups anymore. Theres guys consistently shooting groups in the 1"s almost every test session. Im not sure guys realize how small these rifles can shoot at 1k. You can learn things from a 1" gun you cant from a 3" gun.

You dont think bullet makers have a part in this???

I do, I just shot the highest score at the Ridgway championship 2 day match. My gun is pillar bedded. I believe it's a large combination of bullet makers, optics. barrels, Smith's and most of all load development. I've shot some pretty decent scores at Ridgway over the past couple years, but the most recent change was bullets. So I'm using a pillar bedded rifle, with a Jewell trigger and a nightforce comp. All of which have been posted as sub standard at one time or another on this site. Kudos to Roy Hunter, because it looks like his bullets must overcome all the poor equipment and techniques I seem to like.

How about some details on 1" groups, I believe I already know a little about them. And your right, they are not lucky, accidental or without having good equipment, but a glued in action isn't the immediate result of small groups.

Wasn't the reason for glued actions originally to save weight in point blank shooting? True there are a few advantages but I think a properly maintained bedded action will perform just as well as a glued action

 

[mauser284]

Why SS in particular?

Why? If you gun is glued into the stock how do you lubricate it to prevent corrosion? So as such you want to have as much resistance to rust as you can get if you will be going years at a time with out being able to maintain or inspect easily. Why do you think all of your Mauser, Springfield and other military bolt guns are pristine on the top and pitted on the bottom hidden by the wood? The parts that you do not see never got cleaned or lubed but the parts that could be seen fully assembled did get lubed. That is why it is common to see military bolt guns especially old ones that had wood stocks and hand guards with pitting bellow the wood line! So SS especialy if it is not re-sulphared 416 aka 416R is a step in the right direction.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

You dont think bullet makers have a part in this???

I do, I just shot the highest score at the Ridgway championship 2 day match. My gun is pillar bedded. I believe it's a large combination of bullet makers, optics. barrels, Smith's and most of all load development. I've shot some pretty decent scores at Ridgway over the past couple years, but the most recent change was bullets. So I'm using a pillar bedded rifle, with a Jewell trigger and a nightforce comp. All of which have been posted as sub standard at one time or another on this site. Kudos to Roy Hunter, because it looks like his bullets must overcome all the poor equipment and techniques I seem to like.

How about some details on 1" groups, I believe I already know a little about them. And your right, they are not lucky, accidental or without having good equipment, but a glued in action isn't the immediate result of small groups.

Wasn't the reason for glued actions originally to save weight in point blank shooting? True there are a few advantages but I think a properly maintained bedded action will perform just as well as a glued action

Glued in actions originated in short range to eliminate movement in the stock. Get your best bedding job and test it. I have and it gets worse over time as the epoxy shrinks, but itll move on the first day.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Why? If you gun is glued into the stock how do you lubricate it to prevent corrosion? So as such you want to have as much resistance to rust as you can get if you will be going years at a time with out being able to maintain or inspect easily. Why do you think all of your Mauser, Springfield and other military bolt guns are pristine on the top and pitted on the bottom hidden by the wood? The parts that you do not see never got cleaned or lubed but the parts that could be seen fully assembled did get lubed. That is why it is common to see military bolt guns especially old ones that had wood stocks and hand guards with pitting bellow the wood line! So SS especialy if it is not re-sulphared 416 aka 416R is a step in the right direction.

Will it rust without oxygen getting to it or are the military rifles rusting due to the combination of wood and the environment. I popped out a chromemoly bat a few weeks ago, a round 3l that has been glued in since they came out with blued actions (maybe 10yrs ago). Not only was it not rusted, i actually scuffed up the bottom of the action to where there was zero bluing on it. No hint of rust- im guessing because air couldnt get to it

 

[KenOath]

Will it rust without oxygen getting to it or are the military rifles rusting due to the combination of wood and the environment. I popped out a chromemoly bat a few weeks ago, a round 3l that has been glued in since they came out with blued actions (maybe 10yrs ago). Not only was it not rusted, i actually scuffed up the bottom of the action to where there was zero bluing on it. No hint of rust- im guessing because air couldnt get to it

Was gunna mention the rust needs air thing but wasn’t sure... I had a SS action unglued after about 3 years and looked as good as it did when it went in.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

You dont think bullet makers have a part in this???

I do, I just shot the highest score at the Ridgway championship 2 day match. My gun is pillar bedded. I believe it's a large combination of bullet makers, optics. barrels, Smith's and most of all load development. I've shot some pretty decent scores at Ridgway over the past couple years, but the most recent change was bullets. So I'm using a pillar bedded rifle, with a Jewell trigger and a nightforce comp. All of which have been posted as sub standard at one time or another on this site. Kudos to Roy Hunter, because it looks like his bullets must overcome all the poor equipment and techniques I seem to like.

How about some details on 1" groups, I believe I already know a little about them. And your right, they are not lucky, accidental or without having good equipment, but a glued in action isn't the immediate result of small groups.

Wasn't the reason for glued actions originally to save weight in point blank shooting? True there are a few advantages but I think a properly maintained bedded action will perform just as well as a glued action

Everything plays a role in why groups are getting smaller. But now that they are you can see the difference in things you couldnt before. Roy makes a great bullet but, the guys have been shooting 1s for a few years now. There should be no emotional ties to product or methods. The OP asked, I have proven to myself with rifles I have glued that they shoot smaller. I can't un see it. And I cant un test equipment that performed poorly. Again, its not personal to me, its just equipment.

 

[rjtfroggy]

In the IBS Hunter class a glue in is not legal, must be as it comes from factory.

 

[Big Mc]

Could someone explain the advantages and drawbacks of gluing in an action?

How do you removed a glued action? Once a glued action is removed what’s steps need to be taken on the stock and the action to re-glue it?

I glue in all of mine.When it is time to get an action out I use a henway, on fuss. Just my two cents.. Tommy MC

 

[jghoghunter]

↑Alex Wheeler
It does not get posted here, but 1"s are not lucky groups anymore. Theres guys consistently shooting groups in the 1"s almost every test session. Im not sure guys realize how small these rifles can shoot at 1k. You can learn things from a 1" gun you cant from a 3" gun.

jghoghunter
How many shots?

I still don't know how many shots these test session groups are? What I do know is that I"m not the best shot on this forum by any means but the first bench rifle I built over 10 years ago in my "test sessions" would consistently shot 1.5-2.0" for 5 shots. When you stretched it out to 10 it was a consistent 5-7" gun for me. Remember I am by no means a great shooter. That rifle was a worked over Remington 40x in a pesky unstable wooden stock with those damn jewell triggers and a Broughton bbl that was pillar bedded. If its bedded properly there is no way you will bend that action before the wood or fiberglass.

 

[mikeeg02]

I guess I'll clarify then and make sure its understood, all of the claims I have made have been shot and recorded in matches. And around here, thats ten shots for group.


Fortunately its a free country and were all allowed to have our own beliefs. But when I look at guys who I consider my friends, and who are typically in the top ten spots in the ten match aggs, year after year, I certainly am inclined to listen to them. And when I prove it to myself it works, you'll be hard to convince me otherwise.

George Kruchinsky for example has been shooting competitively for 47 years. Think about that for a second. This man has been through, what he started with, and pioneered and asked for so many things we take for granted these days, that back then, were complete unknowns. Hes become a dear friend of mine, and I am fortunate that he has helped me the way he has. To this day, he is still almost always in the top 10 of the 10 match aggregates at 1,000 yards. Thats a big deal.

These guys dont get there, and stay there without evolving. And as he told me, he went though the glue in "phase" of his career. And his 5 of his current, identical rifles are all pillar bedded, and from over 7 years ago.(aside from the one he noticed a problem) If someone was going to notice shrinkage, or loosening, George definitely would. He is immaculate about his rifles.

Again, your mileage may vary.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

3-5 shots. Normal tuning sessions.

 

[KenOath]

Looks like a well bedded and maintained bedding job as well as a glue in will yield the same results and set records, Win and do it consistently over many years...boils down to personal preference..As mentioned above it’s a free country choose what makes more sense in your mind!

 

[Raythemanroe]

I have, and I have read about others that do and their concerns with it and "bowing/bending the action" or putting stress into it so I checked a couple of my stocks and got to thinking.

Thats a bunch of hogwash if you ask me. You're telling me that your 1.355" (or larger) round action is getting bent or stressed by a piece of wood or fiberglass with a skim coat of metal epoxy thats getting screwed to it? Sorry man, not buying it. I think people have got it backwards.

Having said that, I think a good bedding job is very important. You certainly dont want it loose. But to tell me you're bending that action.

But your results may be different than mine.

The bending came from the days of small Remington tangs. Bedding or a not so good bedding job can allow inconsistent vibration that doesn't repeat thus changing harmonics day to day, shot to shot.. It's not to hard to figure that the least chance for a bedding job to allow this would be a permanent bonded (glue job) bedded action.. Least that is what I would think.. Have you tried it? I don't think you are going to see some leap in results, it's kinda of the idea that you won't see it fail. Bedding shrinks

Ray

 

[Raythemanroe]

Since Williamsport has wormed it's way into this conversation, it would be nice to know what the folks who have accumulated (and continue to accumulate) more HOF points than most of us will ever be able to dream about (Kruchinsky, Kenzakoski, Mark King, Jay Burger, Murtiff, Kline et al) would have to say about this. . . . .

They would tell you to go with a barrel block... Lol


Ray

 

[Raythemanroe]

Why? If you gun is glued into the stock how do you lubricate it to prevent corrosion? So as such you want to have as much resistance to rust as you can get if you will be going years at a time with out being able to maintain or inspect easily. Why do you think all of your Mauser, Springfield and other military bolt guns are pristine on the top and pitted on the bottom hidden by the wood? The parts that you do not see never got cleaned or lubed but the parts that could be seen fully assembled did get lubed. That is why it is common to see military bolt guns especially old ones that had wood stocks and hand guards with pitting bellow the wood line! So SS especialy if it is not re-sulphared 416 aka 416R is a step in the right direction.

Would you take apart your bedded rifle and lube up the action and put it back together? I wouldn't. I would wipe it down with alcohol and try to assemble it with zero interference of any kind.. I guess people are just on different pages.

Ray