Induction brass annealer redux

[jthor]

Curious on y'all opinions on optimal flash annealing Temps are. The standard for either flame or induction annealers have been using 750F Tempilaq. Brass annealing articles say that 750-800F peak temp is ideal. While on the other hand one of AMPs articles states that their .223 Norma Brass reached a peak temp a tad bit over 1000F. That would be a little over 50F higher than the temp of which brass starts glowing, 950F. A temp everyone in the community says to steer clear of because you will make the brass too soft. When I get back to the states I fully intend on testing this out. Both using a Vickers Hardness testing from the local University as well as looking at the brass crystallization under a 200x microscope.

What is really needed is a range of Temilaq paints to find out exactly what temps the AMP unit does goto. I have a feeling that they may reduce the peak temperature reached now, as in units with the Aztec. My guess is that there is a light sensor in close proximity to the case. so when the case starts to glow it is picked up by the sensor and a data point is obtained from that. Note AMP now say a sacrificial case is needed. So they must be over heating it. How to tell either temp or colour. So from that fail data point they then back off a certain amount so that they no longer produce any light.
I use the 750 and there is a little bit of room between that temp and starting to change colour, of course this time between those two points is based on the rate of temperature change and why IMO think slower (just a little) is better.

They bring the case to the point of melting in AZTEC mode which is 915C or 1679F for C26000. Theres some sort of change there that the machine detects and records it and backs off from there. Theres some constant from back off of the melting point that they have determined through their testing to give them the ideal hardness. 1679F is well past the point of were brass glows which is as 950F and like their chart shows, that .223 rem brass flash annealed with the ideal HV at a little over 1000F. It is from this article.

https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/

 

[jthor]

Also, here's a link where someone took apart and AMP. I don't see any optical or IR sensor. My best guess would be the system can detect a change in the current the Ferrite core is requiring. As soon as that distinct and noticeable change happens in current would be the point at which brass begins to melt. I've burned my brass on purpose before testing how far after it turned red that it would "burn/melt"; it was quite a while after it initially turned red. And by a lot i mean maybe a few seconds.


https://fccid.io/2AGVJ-ANNEALING1/Internal-Photos/Internal-Photos-2874530

 

[SGK]

I reckon, when using the sort of coil this thread discusses, by the time 750F Tempilaq on the shoulder or sidewall near the shoulder junction has changed colour the neck is way over 750F.

 

[Matt Findlay]

Curious on y'all opinions on optimal flash annealing Temps are. The standard for either flame or induction annealers have been using 750F Tempilaq. Brass annealing articles say that 750-800F peak temp is ideal. While on the other hand one of AMPs articles states that their .223 Norma Brass reached a peak temp a tad bit over 1000F. That would be a little over 50F higher than the temp of which brass starts glowing, 950F. A temp everyone in the community says to steer clear of because you will make the brass too soft. When I get back to the states I fully intend on testing this out. Both using a Vickers Hardness testing from the local University as well as looking at the brass crystallization under a 200x microscope.

Most people who refer to that chart from the Annealing under the microscope article tend to miss out the part in red seen here:

 

[David101]

Wow I am sure that is something AMP would rather not have on the web. You are right the current does change when it melts. I kind of thought that this data point would be too far from the ideal temp to use.

@SGK I think you are right in that the neck is a fair way above the 750. However I have done a lot of brass is a dark room and even had to do the same tests for some of the doubters in my rifle club and there is no glow at all from the brass. This may vary on the type of case I haven't done a lot of different cases as yet mainly 308.

 

[jthor]

I believe your are right with that @SGK .
@David101 probably not, but it’s there. They use a rather large U Ferrite core with 1.3 M of 2772 Litz cable in the build. (They discuss the the 1.3 litz cable of their FB page). BOOM! So I am right on the current change most likely being the indicator! So then they probably back the melting time off via some % to get their result. Though probably more variables in there determine how much time needs to be taken off the point that it melted. Really excited to get back to the states at the end of the summer so I can do a bunch of experiments.

 

[SGK]

In a darkened room I see a glow form at the case mouth which very quickly shoots down the neck. (308 cases)

 

[jthor]

So talked to AMP again. Disregard the graph. They said it was when they were first starting off and theres some error in that reading from 2015. I’ve been having long talks with them. They’re extremely passionate in what they do.

 

[David101]

In a darkened room I see a glow form at the case mouth which very quickly shoots down the neck. (308 cases)

What if you back off the time a little? Can you still get a change in the tepilaq? I have watched the cases without any tempilaq and you can see a slight change occur the case goes from the bright shiny freshly tumbled to what looks like at the time slightly matte on closer inspection it is that changed colour we associate with annealing. But only just and it goes just over the shoulder say 3-4 mm not that large distance like on factory brass. I only want to change the neck and just the shoulder. My setup is a little bit off the norm using a coil with one less turn and slightly larger tube. I also added the extra capacitors. For Lapua Palma brass I use 4.45 seconds and it maxs out at 15.4 amps just at the last moment.

Having a poke around at that site going back into some of the other areas
https://fccid.io/2AGVJ-ANNEALING1
Here the frequency is given as 116 kHz

 

[Gina1]

Hi guys...
Jumping into this discussion. First, I have never seen the neck glow at all in all the time I have been using my annealer. Of course I'm only doing 6BR dasher cases. Anneal time is 5.4 seconds and current maxes 12.6 amps at the last instant.
A quick way to get a handle on this would be to use several diferent higher tempilaq temperatures on the neck, (but you got to spend the money for it) Anyone upto it ??

 

[jthor]

Most people who refer to that chart from the Annealing under the microscope article tend to miss out the part in red seen here:
View attachment 1107604

Totally didn’t see this when you posted it, my bad!

@David101 I’m gonna use an Arduino to detect the current change from initial start of the circuit to when that current changes at its melting point and log it over several cases to get a good base line. Then, I’m going incrementally increase time around the area I believe the case to be annealing and test both the HV and crystallization of the brass. Maybe I’ll find a correlating backed off of the melting point. Obviously I’ll have to go to another lot number of brass or a different cartridge completely in order test it after the initial findings.

 

[jthor]

Hi guys...
Jumping into this discussion. First, I have never seen the neck glow at all in all the time I have been using my annealer. Of course I'm only doing 6BR dasher cases. Anneal time is 5.4 seconds and current maxes 12.6 amps at the last instant.
A quick way to get a handle on this would be to use several diferent higher tempilaq temperatures on the neck, (but you got to spend the money for it) Anyone upto it ??

I’m your huckleberry, but it will have to wait to late summer...


@SGK So for the 7RM Hornady brass I use in a Sako A7 I have the same thing happening with the brass. There’s a very, very dim red barely visible. This is seen milliseconds before the circuit closes and the brass drops. So far this cartridge has given me the best consistent SD and ES right above my 300 WM. ES of 8 and SD of 3.2 out of 15 shots with 160gr partitions and Retumbo. I’m expecting that number to jump down a bit when I switch to the AutoThrow/AutoTrickle V3 with the FX-120i scale from the Chargemaster Lite. Which is still an excellent scale for its price and performance.

With my 6.5 PRC Brass however, I get the classic “anneal” discoloration inside and outside the case just milliseconds before it drops.
The 7 mag brass looks purdy if I say so myself.

 

[Frog]

After 3 years of reading this post I finally have my power supply coming
I'm going to build the original Gina-Erick unit
Wish I had the knowledge that a lot of you guys have about electronic but alas I don't
Still should be fun
Thanks Gina for starting this Thread
Frenchie

 

[Gina1]

After 3 years of reading this post I finally have my power supply coming
I'm going to build the original Gina-Erick unit
Wish I had the knowledge that a lot of you guys have about electronic but alas I don't
Still should be fun
Thanks Gina for starting this Thread
Frenchie

Any help I can offer, just ask,
Gina

 

[David101]

After 3 years of reading this post I finally have my power supply coming
I'm going to build the original Gina-Erick unit
Wish I had the knowledge that a lot of you guys have about electronic but alas I don't
Still should be fun
Thanks Gina for starting this Thread
Frenchie

If you can do the mechanical part of the build you will have enough grey matter to be able to get a working machine finished. There are enough good people here with the knowledge to get you through any problem you may run into. Getting your vision of how you want it to look at the finish is the hardest part. My hat is off to the people that have put auto feeders into the build but IMHO it really is not needed. With a bowl full of brass in front of you, you can have a fresh piece of brass ready to go in your hand as the last one is finished.

 

[Gina1]

True on the manual feed. Had a match this Sunday. Had 90 cases to anneal. Got all done in 11 1/2 minutes (5.4 sec annealing, .5 sec trap door solenoid, 1.5 sec delay to drop a another case into the coil). Once your have the rhythm going, it goes fast. The through put is one of the really neat things I like about the basic unit.

 

[jthor]

True on the manual feed. Had a match this Sunday. Had 90 cases to anneal. Got all done in 11 1/2 minutes (5.4 sec annealing, .5 sec trap door solenoid, 1.5 sec delay to drop a another case into the coil). Once your have the rhythm going, it goes fast. The through put is one of the really neat things I like about the basic unit.

I’m going to convert you to using an auto feed system once I finish it this fall.

 

[Gina1]

I’m going to convert you to using an auto feed system once I finish it this fall.

LOL (smile) I could see auto feed, if I was doing commercial amounts of annealing. For me at the very most i may go through 200 rounds a month. Time wise it is not a problem, maybe 1/2 an hour a month.
Granted, auto feed is cool and I look forward to seeing your design and build. Maybe if I were building a new unit, I might be tempted to incorporate it into it. but for now the basic unit does just fine for me.
For first time builders, I would go KISS (Keep It Simple S----)
Hugs Gina

 

[jthor]

@Gina1 It will be a pretty simple thing to upgrade. I’ll 3D print the part when I finish mine and send you the an Arduino and 3D printed parts if you want. It will be triggered to drop a piece of brass .5 seconds after it gets an input from the solenoid circuit.

 

[Gina1]

OK.. will take at look at it, when you finish yours. Remember I'm an electronic dinosaur "micro what" !!