looking for a tighter group

[Ringostar]

What is the twist rate of your factory varmint barrel? Some manufacturers use a very slow twist. They are built more for light bullet varmint loads. It’s possible that the 77 is too much bullet for your twist rate.

 

[711rollerdog]

What does a chronograph say?.. The further out...?

 

[rebs]

Mike06 I have 5 lbs of RL 15 so I don't really want to change powders at this point. But I do have a lb of ARComp so I could load a few and see what happens.

MihiT why do you say a magnum primer with RL 25 powder ? I was under the assumption that magnum primers were for ball powder.

 

[grovey]

The mag primers have a tougher cup. Your BR4'S do as well. I'd feel safe betting your gun is capable of close to 1/4 moa. Seen it from several Tikka's. I'd be feeding it Varget or H4895... I like temp stable powders. I'd also not turn my nose up at Lapua brass. I'm sure you've wasted 50 bucks on less before. I sure as hell have.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Guys, he's shooting a .224 bullet specifically designed for ARs at mag length, only he's doing it out of a bolt gun in a comp that requires single feeding.

If I were in your shoes, the very first thing I'd be doing is running 80gr class bullet, and ignoring the manuals as far as COAL. Start those things .020 off the lands, and run your standard load workup.

Depending on how your chamber is cut, this will likely allow you to go above book max powder charges without pressure signs.

I do agree with others that brass prep/neck tension is critical (as always), but drop the AR bullets, and start your load workup .020 off, once you know where the lands are for a given bullet.

FYI - .223 T3x varmints are 8 twist.

Edit: OP check out this thread....please don't use the OAL numbers directly; you need to get an OAL gauge, but this should be a good indicator as to how much you're currently jumping those 77s

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/8-twist-tikka-t3x-varmint-question.3923881/

 

[Zero333]

Once you find the best seating depth, I would then proceed to trying different primer(s) to see if it it helps even more or not.

I've had some loads that worked way better with certain primers over others and I've had loads that didn't make a difference what primer I used. You won't know till you try.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Guys, he's shooting a .224 bullet specifically designed for ARs at mag length, only he's doing it out of a bolt gun in a comp that requires single feeding.

If I were in your shoes, the very first thing I'd be doing is running 80gr class bullet, and ignoring the manuals as far as COAL. Start those things .020 off the lands, and run your standard load workup.

Depending on how your chamber is cut, this will likely allow you to go above book max powder charges without pressure signs.

I do agree with others that brass prep/neck tension is critical (as always), but drop the AR bullets, and start your load workup .020 off, once you know where the lands are for a given bullet.

FYI - .223 T3x varmints are 8 twist.

Edit: OP check out this thread....please don't use the OAL numbers directly; you need to get an OAL gauge, but this should be a good indicator as to how much you're currently jumping those 77s

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/8-twist-tikka-t3x-varmint-question.3923881/

^^^This. I had a GAP .223 Rem built as an F-TR practice rifle a number of years back. It is likely pretty similar in specs to your Tikka. At the time I ordered the build, I was not reloading and so did not specify any particular chamber, just a 26" 7-twist barrel. When I first started shooting it, I found it would shoot FGMM77s into 0.25 MOA 5-shot groups regularly at 100 yd; it was just stupidly accurate with that ammo. Under fairly calm conditions, it was also capable of shooting cleans with high X-counts using the FGMM77 ammo at 300 yd. However, when the wind came up even a little bit, the 77 gr bullet just didn't cut it. My scores and X-counts would drop then noticeably.

I decided to develop a load for it with the heavier Berger 80.5 Fullbore bullet to get a little better wind performance. At that time, I found out that the chamber was cut with zero freebore. Nonetheless, I worked up a load with H322, which is a relatively fast powder for an 80 gr bullet, figuring that with only a 26" pipe and the bullet seated pretty far down in the case, a faster powder would be of benefit. Long story short, it worked. The 80.5 Fullbore load was head and shoulders better and allowed me to shoot far better scores at 300 yd than the FGMM77s, even though precision with either load at 100 yd was comparable. If the precision you get with the 77s is noticeably better at 100 yd than ~0.67 MOA (i.e. the 2" groups at 300 yd you described), it wouldn't surprise me if you were experiencing something similar to what I found with the FGMM77 ammo. How do your best groups with the 77s at 300 yd fired under dead calm conditions look? If you're unsatisfied with the precision even in the absence of any wind condition, see if you can't tune the load in better with seating depth. I'd suggest testing in .003" increments from about .003" off the lands out to about .030" off the lands. Chances are good you'll find something in that region you like, especially by testing in finer increments than .005" or .010".

The 77 is a fine bullet, especially when restricted to loading to mag length. However, it cannot keep up with a good 80 gr .224 bullet once the wind picks up. I don't know what the exact freebore of your Tikka is, but it can't be any less than my rifle (zero). Further, an 8-twist barrel is sufficient for the 80.5s. You might consider loading some up over either H4895 or Varget if you have plenty of freebore to seat them out, or H322 if it's short like mine was. I think you'll appreciate what the increased BC of an 80+ gr bullet can do for you once the wind picks up.

 

[MihiT]

.

MihiT why do you say a magnum primer with RL 25 powder ? I was under the assumption that magnum primers were for ball powder.

I am going to catch flak for this, but: "more reliable ignition" is the gist of it

 

[Richard Coody]

At 300 yds f class I am getting just under 2 inch groups. Would you try adjusting the powder or seating depth to tighten the groups ? Rifle is a Tikka T3x varmint in 223 cal. Bullet is a SMK 77 gr in Lake City cases with Reloader 15 powder seated at 2.260.

There are about a dozen different things to try to reduce group size.

Lets start with the ones that had the largest effect fir me during this learning process.

Accurate consistent powder charges. How are you measuring your powder charge. Now if you can find a wide charge node it is less important but accurate charges really help.

Finding a bullet your rifle really likes. I lean to berger bullets. Don't get stuck trying to make your rifle shoot something it doesn't like.

Proper load development. I don't care if you start with charges or seating depth. Personally i start with a slight jam and work up a powder charge with the OCW technique. Then do a seating depth test backing off .010 at a time. If i am looking for a mag length load then i will use the berger seating depth test by changing seating depth .030 at a time.

One will stand out. Then refine your load. Then refine your seating depth.

Oh with your scope i would do all of this at 100 yrds.

Then we can talk about brass, brass prep, neck tension, neck turning, primer testing and a host of other techniques

 

[rebs]

^^^This. I had a GAP .223 Rem built as an F-TR practice rifle a number of years back. It is likely pretty similar in specs to your Tikka. At the time I ordered the build, I was not reloading and so did not specify any particular chamber, just a 26" 7-twist barrel. When I first started shooting it, I found it would shoot FGMM77s into 0.25 MOA 5-shot groups regularly at 100 yd; it was just stupidly accurate with that ammo. Under fairly calm conditions, it was also capable of shooting cleans with high X-counts using the FGMM77 ammo at 300 yd. However, when the wind came up even a little bit, the 77 gr bullet just didn't cut it. My scores and X-counts would drop then noticeably.

I decided to develop a load for it with the heavier Berger 80.5 Fullbore bullet to get a little better wind performance. At that time, I found out that the chamber was cut with zero freebore. Nonetheless, I worked up a load with H322, which is a relatively fast powder for an 80 gr bullet, figuring that with only a 26" pipe and the bullet seated pretty far down in the case, a faster powder would be of benefit. Long story short, it worked. The 80.5 Fullbore load was head and shoulders better and allowed me to shoot far better scores at 300 yd than the FGMM77s, even though precision with either load at 100 yd was comparable. If the precision you get with the 77s is noticeably better at 100 yd than ~0.67 MOA (i.e. the 2" groups at 300 yd you described), it wouldn't surprise me if you were experiencing something similar to what I found with the FGMM77 ammo. How do your best groups with the 77s at 300 yd fired under dead calm conditions look? If you're unsatisfied with the precision even in the absence of any wind condition, see if you can't tune the load in better with seating depth. I'd suggest testing in .003" increments from about .003" off the lands out to about .030" off the lands. Chances are good you'll find something in that region you like, especially by testing in finer increments than .005" or .010".

The 77 is a fine bullet, especially when restricted to loading to mag length. However, it cannot keep up with a good 80 gr .224 bullet once the wind picks up. I don't know what the exact freebore of your Tikka is, but it can't be any less than my rifle (zero). Further, an 8-twist barrel is sufficient for the 80.5s. You might consider loading some up over either H4895 or Varget if you have plenty of freebore to seat them out, or H322 if it's short like mine was. I think you'll appreciate what the increased BC of an 80+ gr bullet can do for you once the wind picks up.

My Sierra book says to seat the 80's to 2.550 and when I checked my barrel the max length is 2.473 so at 2.550 the bullet would be way way into the lands, right ? What do you recommend ?

 

[MikeMcCasland]

My Sierra book says to seat the 80's to 2.550 and when I checked my barrel the max length is 2.473 so at 2.550 the bullet would be way way into the lands, right ? What do you recommend ?

How did you get to your barrel max length? Were you using a comparator? If not, you absolutely must use one of these: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PD5VLA/?tag=accuratescom-20

Regardless of how you got there, I'd still run .020 off the lands, and work up from the bottom end book charge.

 

[cw308]

Good advice Mike .

 

[JFrank]

My Sierra book says to seat the 80's to 2.550 and when I checked my barrel the max length is 2.473 so at 2.550 the bullet would be way way into the lands, right ? What do you recommend ?

Rebs
Your rifle didn’t read that Book.

Ya gotta test for yourself, Tikka Varmint models are excellent shooters that’s a fact.
Anytime I lose my way or start over the path I take is to run a ladder test with the bullets just shy of a hard jam, once my charge is identified I move to seating in .005 increments and because I stay with Tangent ogive projectiles I normally end up finding a good repeating group pretty quickly.
I think you’ll get 3/4 in at 200 yards no problem

 

[Richard Coody]

My Sierra book says to seat the 80's to 2.550 and when I checked my barrel the max length is 2.473 so at 2.550 the bullet would be way way into the lands, right ? What do you recommend ?

Did you check the distance to the lands with a hornady overall length gauge and one of the sierra 80 grain bullets you intend to shoot. You have to check the overall length to the lands with each different bullet with the comparators. Believe me there is a.difference.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PD01SI/?tag=accuratescom-20

 

[MGYSGT]

Yes I did deburr the flash holes but I am not using magnum primers I am using CCI BR4's. I have not chronoed the load since I don't have a chronograph. 2.260 seemed to me to be the place to start.
Mihit could be very well be right about the accuracy, 2" at 300 yds is under one MOA. Maybe I can get better and maybe not but I am going to try, I am retired and have the time. I am shooting a Leupold scope on 14 x, maybe I could do better myself with a 6 - 24 power scope ? Many possibilities to explore but I am going to start with seating depth and go from there. Thank you guys for all the replies, I appreciate it.

300 yards for me is hard to see in less than 22 to 24 power. On occasion during the heat of the day (mirage) I turn it down to 18 or so. That helps considerably. Being able to define the target will help considerably.

 

[Liven The Dream]

Good read .

I have been doing some .223 Load work of late.
With 77 gr. Sierra and Nosler my groups at 200 are less than Great ( Brass is all complete Prep and weight sorted ).

Only change made of late was to 75gr. Hornady and nice clover leaf groups .

Brass used Hornady , LC , Federal GI . primers Wolf SRM and Fed.205M , Powder Varget , R-15 So-62 , IMR4166

Running the SO-62 as got it . close to Varget ???

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Wind flags will probably help more than anything suggested. You just cant shoot small groups without them or a big enough scope. If your crosshairs are 1/2” wide you just cant shoot smaller than that

 

[rebs]

How did you get to your barrel max length? Were you using a comparator? If not, you absolutely must use one of these: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PD5VLA/?tag=accuratescom-20

Regardless of how you got there, I'd still run .020 off the lands, and work up from the bottom end book charge.

I used a case with a slit in two sides to hold the bullet and chambered it very carefully then pulled it out and measured the length from base to bullet point.

 

[Ned Ludd]

My Sierra book says to seat the 80's to 2.550 and when I checked my barrel the max length is 2.473 so at 2.550 the bullet would be way way into the lands, right ? What do you recommend ?

My load for the rifle with zero freebore is the 80.5 seated at ~.024" off the lands, CBTO (Hornady comparator insert) = 1.8445", COAL = 2.324", 22.5 gr H322. Velocity with this load is ~2860 fps from the 26" barrel; it's a little "warm", but brass life seems to be fine. If you can seat the 80.5s starting at ~.020" off the lands as the measurments above suggest, your COAL/CBTO will be a lot longer than mine, meaning the bullet won't be nearly as far down in the neck and you will have greater effective case volume, and slightly lower pressure. In that event, I'd probably start with H4895, rather than H322. Start low and work up carefully in small increments (I use 0.2 gr increments with the .223 Rem initially, 0.1 gr to fine tune). Obviously, these will loaded rounds will not fit in a magazine and will have to be single-fed.

If for some reason you feel the 80.5s are still too long, the SMK80s are slightly shorter, both in OAL and BTO. However, the BC is also slightly lower. Nonetheless, they would still be better in the wind than 77s. It sounds like you have several options. Working to improve wind reading with regular practice using flags will generally be of benefit to any shooter. Fine-tuning your load with the 77s may be possible with seating depth testing and/or charge weight, if necessary. Finally, using a bullet with a better BC than the 77s will likely be of benefit in the long haul. If your issue with the 77s really is primarily a load/tuning rather than a wind issue, simply switching bullets may not immediately shrink your groups at 300 yd. But over time, you would still likely see some gains from using the better bullet. It is not common to make "quatum leaps" in terms of progress in the reloading/shooting game. But stick with it and over time I'm sure you'll get were you want to be.

 

[6MMsteve]

buy a Krieger Brux Bartlien BHroughton Lederer barrel your groups will shrink I think mo money