looking for a tighter group
- Thread starter rebs
- Start date
reds
OAL is important when your limited to your magazine size , knowing that length measurement the round from base to ogive , that's your safe length so your rounds will feed properly . When measuring from base to ogive is the most accurate way to measure your reloads , bullet points will vary in size , not the best way to measure . Shooting with a magazine looking to seat as close to the rifling could be too long for the magazine . Shooting one round at a time into the chamber then you can find what works best a jam or jump. I only load one round at a time using a single shot follower in my rifle .
OAL is important when your limited to your magazine size , knowing that length measurement the round from base to ogive , that's your safe length so your rounds will feed properly . When measuring from base to ogive is the most accurate way to measure your reloads , bullet points will vary in size , not the best way to measure . Shooting with a magazine looking to seat as close to the rifling could be too long for the magazine . Shooting one round at a time into the chamber then you can find what works best a jam or jump. I only load one round at a time using a single shot follower in my rifle .
Hey Rebs how's it going ? Are you using that brass I sent you yet ?
2" or under at 300yds is pretty good . When I look at your load in a ballistic calculator . Even a wind of 3mph will push your bullet 3/4 of an inch . That's enough to change your group from sub 1/2 moa to the 2" group size you're getting . Unless it's dead calm 1/2 moa or better is pretty tough . At least for me it is .
rebs
Gold $$ Contributor
Hi How have you been ? Yes I am using the brass you sent me. It is great brass and I thank you.
rebs
Gold $$ Contributor
I have the single shot follower for my Tikka and only single load. I loaded a few rounds at different seating depths to try out tomorrow.
MikeMcCasland
Team Texas F-T/R
rebs,
Glad to see you're doing some seating depth testing, but wanted to toss a few more comments your way.
1.) It sounds like you're measuring OAL from cartridge base to the tip/meplat. This is less than ideal in the best of circumstances (tipped bullets). You're using SMKs which will vary quite a bit from bullet to bullet, as the meplats are usually quite rough (i.e. you won't be able to get accurate/repeatable numbers). You need to be using a bullet comparator to take measurements from the bullet ogive. This is the easiest way to obtain 100% repeatable numbers, both in taking seating depth to lands measurements, as well as seating depth load testing. Consider this a required piece of equipment in F-Class shooting.
2.) I know you've already got those 77SMKs, but let me tell ya, that's not the bullet you want to be running in F-Class. Per Litz's tests, the 77 SMK has a G7 BC of .193. If you swapped to an 80.5 Berger fullbore with a .277 G7 BC, you'd remove roughly 1" of potential wind deflection at 300 yards in 5mph (low) winds. That is not insignificant over the course of a timed 20-shot string. Even more importantly, you're probably shooting against more .308s than you are .223s. In those very same conditions, an average .308 FTR load will move 1.2" less than you. If you ever plan to shoot in 500/600y MR matches, the difference will become even more pronounced.
3.) If you're now seating your bullet .1-.3 further in the case, your powder charge node is probably going to be out of whack. When you shoot tomorrow, you want to be looking for a depth that seems to shoot the best, but don't stop there. Go back and re-work your power charge.
My 2c, but you get what you pay for, and my crappy advice is free.
Glad to see you're doing some seating depth testing, but wanted to toss a few more comments your way.
1.) It sounds like you're measuring OAL from cartridge base to the tip/meplat. This is less than ideal in the best of circumstances (tipped bullets). You're using SMKs which will vary quite a bit from bullet to bullet, as the meplats are usually quite rough (i.e. you won't be able to get accurate/repeatable numbers). You need to be using a bullet comparator to take measurements from the bullet ogive. This is the easiest way to obtain 100% repeatable numbers, both in taking seating depth to lands measurements, as well as seating depth load testing. Consider this a required piece of equipment in F-Class shooting.
2.) I know you've already got those 77SMKs, but let me tell ya, that's not the bullet you want to be running in F-Class. Per Litz's tests, the 77 SMK has a G7 BC of .193. If you swapped to an 80.5 Berger fullbore with a .277 G7 BC, you'd remove roughly 1" of potential wind deflection at 300 yards in 5mph (low) winds. That is not insignificant over the course of a timed 20-shot string. Even more importantly, you're probably shooting against more .308s than you are .223s. In those very same conditions, an average .308 FTR load will move 1.2" less than you. If you ever plan to shoot in 500/600y MR matches, the difference will become even more pronounced.
3.) If you're now seating your bullet .1-.3 further in the case, your powder charge node is probably going to be out of whack. When you shoot tomorrow, you want to be looking for a depth that seems to shoot the best, but don't stop there. Go back and re-work your power charge.
My 2c, but you get what you pay for, and my crappy advice is free.
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Just a comment re; bullet comparators, you can pull the seating plug out of your die and measure over that with calipers. It's not a true ogive measurement, but a damn sight closer than measuring to the tips.
When measuring to lands, I will measure half a dozen randomly selected brass and projectiles (from the same batch) and work out an average, then back off 0.02".
But also pay heed to the longest, as that could put you into overpressure if you're running close to max
When measuring to lands, I will measure half a dozen randomly selected brass and projectiles (from the same batch) and work out an average, then back off 0.02".
But also pay heed to the longest, as that could put you into overpressure if you're running close to max
rebs
I thought you had the RCBS Precision Mic for your 223 ? Shooting single shot and measuring your cases from the base to shoulder ( Datum ) and base to ogive is the way to go . Takes some time to find the perfect reload . RL 15 is a good choice . I tried Varget , RL15 and IMR 4064 . My rifle didn't shoot well with Varget but 15 & 4064 were very close , went with 4064 the stick was larger in the 4064 it filled my case better because I load on the light side . Are you loading to the high side of the powder scale ?
I thought you had the RCBS Precision Mic for your 223 ? Shooting single shot and measuring your cases from the base to shoulder ( Datum ) and base to ogive is the way to go . Takes some time to find the perfect reload . RL 15 is a good choice . I tried Varget , RL15 and IMR 4064 . My rifle didn't shoot well with Varget but 15 & 4064 were very close , went with 4064 the stick was larger in the 4064 it filled my case better because I load on the light side . Are you loading to the high side of the powder scale ?
Can you direct me to the pay window sir?
rebs
Gold $$ Contributor
I posted this in a new thread to help out a friend that doesn't have internet.
I shot five groups at 100 yds with 69 SMK, and 24.0, 24.4 and 24.8 of RL 15 powder in my Tikka Varmint 223. The 24.0 was one hole 3/8th inch, the 24.4 and the 24.8 were both 1/2 inch. No vertical or horizontal stringing. How can that much of a spread in powder all shoot the same ? How to I pick which load to use ?
I shot five groups at 100 yds with 69 SMK, and 24.0, 24.4 and 24.8 of RL 15 powder in my Tikka Varmint 223. The 24.0 was one hole 3/8th inch, the 24.4 and the 24.8 were both 1/2 inch. No vertical or horizontal stringing. How can that much of a spread in powder all shoot the same ? How to I pick which load to use ?
This is all so silly it's way past ridiculous. You are shooting a factory rifle, using a 14x scope with no wind flags. And you aren't pleased with 1/2 MOA at 300 yards? You're even getting it at 100 with three different loads. It won't get any better. I don't know what all these "advisors" are smoking.
Rick
Rick
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rebs
Gold $$ Contributor
update
I am precisely prepping my cases and weighing them into lots of the same weight, I am weighing the bullets in to lots of the same weight and still cannot shrink my groups smaller than 1 1/2 to 2 inch at 300 yds. I am also trickling my powder charges on a balance beam scale. I have also tried loading to different distances off the lands. I am shooting F class 300 yard. What else could I possibly do to get the groups at and under 1 1/4 inch which is the size of the X ring ? Maybe I am chasing something that isn't going to happen but I striving for a 200 20 X score.
I am precisely prepping my cases and weighing them into lots of the same weight, I am weighing the bullets in to lots of the same weight and still cannot shrink my groups smaller than 1 1/2 to 2 inch at 300 yds. I am also trickling my powder charges on a balance beam scale. I have also tried loading to different distances off the lands. I am shooting F class 300 yard. What else could I possibly do to get the groups at and under 1 1/4 inch which is the size of the X ring ? Maybe I am chasing something that isn't going to happen but I striving for a 200 20 X score.
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JMayo
Silver $$ Contributor
Just caught up on this thread, and yes your Tikka can shoot better than 2" @ 300 !!!
But with just a 14x scope, NO.
Get some better glass.
Guys here were ~2" @ 500 using Berger 69 grainers in their Varmints topped with NF 6-24x.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
It most likely happens because charge weight was not the limiting factor in your groups. My first guess would be that the 14X scope is holding you back. That's not a lot of mag for trying to shoot tight groups, even at only 100 yd. If that's the case, you will be hard-pressed to ever improve your load development because the limiting source of error (i.e. the scope) is much larger than than any incremental charge weight or seating depth change you might make. Put another way, it is entirely possible that your setup might be capable of 0.25 MOA groups at the optimal charge weight/seating depth. However, if you can only reliably shoot groups in the 3/8 to 1/2 MOA with a 14X scope, it will only be luck that you will ever hit upon the 0.25 MOA charge weight/seating depth combination because the limiting factor in the groups spreads is the scope, not the charge weight/seating depth. Optimizing load parameters is all about minimizing the largest (limiting) sources of error.
There is no reasonable way that I, or anyone else, can reliably or definitively analyze all the possible limiting factors in your setup from looking at minimal data over the internet. We can make suggestions, but it will ultimately be up to you to determine what are your limiting sources of error by experimentation and/or experience. To that end, quality higher power scopes aren't cheap. You might run out and by a new scope, and then be disappointed if it turns out the scope wasn't the limiting source of error. Alternatively, that action might well answer a lot of your questions. With regard to your original question of 2" groups with 77 SMKs at 300 yd, I can tell you from personal experience that even a little bit of wind will move the 77s around quite a lot at 300 yd. A 2" group at 300 yd with a factory rifle and 77s is actually quite good. So the 77 SMKs could be a limiting source of error. The 14X scope could be a limiting source of error. The commercial rifle could be a limiting source of error. It could be a lot of things. I'd try to absorb all the comments and suggestions that have been made here for a bit, then decide whether further testing and/or spending money will provide the answers you seek. The alternative is simply accepting that the [relatively good] precision you have already generated is satisfactory and just shoot it and work on your shooting skills. Good luck with it, either way, I hope you can get it where you want to be, or be satisfied with where it already is.
You've been given some good advice in this thread, but it doesn't seem you've heeded it.
Get a GOOD scope with atleast 24x. No way in hell are you seeing .22 cal bullet holes at 300yds with a 14x scope. You need to be able to see your exact aiming point if you expect more.
Pick a slipperier 80gr class bullet as suggested. Maximizing the guns ability for bucking the wind will pay off.
Buy some new Lapua brass , and dedicate it to competing. Sort it by h20 capacity after a few firings in your chamber with minimum sizing. After firing it, skim the neck enough to clean up atleast 80%. I turned mine a bit more, and that worked well for me lightening up my neck tension with using a std FL sizing die.
When doing development in a .223 sized case I always work up .02 gr increments at first, and then .01 . The .04 you mentioned is too much unless it's a .308 sized case or bigger.
Other things....
Temp stable powder
Seating depth
Controlling neck tension
Lighter trigger
Primer choice
Wind flags
Trigger time.
The list goes on and on ,and IMO your gun should be capable of more. That said... at that level it isn't like your going to cut your group sizes in half with one change. Change one thing at a time when looking for improvements, and you'll iron it out.
Like Forrest Gumps Mom said...
One less thing.
Get a GOOD scope with atleast 24x. No way in hell are you seeing .22 cal bullet holes at 300yds with a 14x scope. You need to be able to see your exact aiming point if you expect more.
Pick a slipperier 80gr class bullet as suggested. Maximizing the guns ability for bucking the wind will pay off.
Buy some new Lapua brass , and dedicate it to competing. Sort it by h20 capacity after a few firings in your chamber with minimum sizing. After firing it, skim the neck enough to clean up atleast 80%. I turned mine a bit more, and that worked well for me lightening up my neck tension with using a std FL sizing die.
When doing development in a .223 sized case I always work up .02 gr increments at first, and then .01 . The .04 you mentioned is too much unless it's a .308 sized case or bigger.
Other things....
Temp stable powder
Seating depth
Controlling neck tension
Lighter trigger
Primer choice
Wind flags
Trigger time.
The list goes on and on ,and IMO your gun should be capable of more. That said... at that level it isn't like your going to cut your group sizes in half with one change. Change one thing at a time when looking for improvements, and you'll iron it out.
Like Forrest Gumps Mom said...
One less thing.
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