E-Targets for F-Class
- Thread starter Down South
- Start date
My condolences - we put up a BIG fight over this in the US.
The '8-goodenough' is an excellent study on the effect of etarget error on match winners. But its using dated info on the SMT system since it's based on the old 5mic system. Hopefully someone will update the study.
I think for many of the Australians we have a hard time relating to the "Hype and Marketing" that seems to be held in high regard. A good website and high ranking google hits is not out measure of a good system. We are just ones to drink the Cool Aid and trust in what is written on a good website. In fact I think we throw up barriers to slow things down when something comes on strong.
Oh boy, some of you guys are starting to sound like Brits. I think you might be missing the point that one system costs $800 per firing point, while a competing system from a different company costs $6000-$10,000 per point. The US federal government does not award grants to buy targets for gun clubs (don’t worry, they waste money on plenty of stupid things, that just isn’t one of them), so they need to be budgeted for by the clubs. Very few clubs can, or are willing to spend the $6-10k when the $800 system works pretty darned well.
Again, it’s a hobby. The results of the hobby are completely meaningless in real life. Spending 10x on targets for a tiny incremental (and imperceptible?) gain just isn’t going to happen at many clubs. I believe that the other guy’s point about the website was that it’s hard to sell your product when people don’t know it exists, but glad to hear that the Aussies have such excellent powers of discernment when it comes to internet advertising.
Erud I totally agree with what you said. We have plenty of small clubs nearly all. There are two larger well run ranges shared by clubs the rest are but just a handful of people trying desperately to revive the sport. Not all have the right people within the club to apply for grants and not all will get grants so that leaves a lot left. The $1000 per target is the right decision for them. It is when competitions start to come into the equation that things change, you either have to go back to paper targets or have the appropriate equipment.
We have already found that people after a bad experience at a certain range using targets X that they will boycott not come back. they are not going to travel the X hundreds or thousands of Km spend money on the travel, accommodation, food, entry fees, and the gear costs on what could either be a bad experience due to equipment problems or have it affecting the decision.
Dont worry I know this can happen with manual targets as well. I have had someone else's patched out shot sticker fall off, my shot not found sort of experience. Competition down the toilet when often matches are being won by a single point or even on centers.
But be fair there were plenty of comments about don't bag the opposition type and then plenty about poor websites and SEO the latter not being a reflection on the engineers only the lack of a slick marketing team.
We have already found that people after a bad experience at a certain range using targets X that they will boycott not come back. they are not going to travel the X hundreds or thousands of Km spend money on the travel, accommodation, food, entry fees, and the gear costs on what could either be a bad experience due to equipment problems or have it affecting the decision.
Dont worry I know this can happen with manual targets as well. I have had someone else's patched out shot sticker fall off, my shot not found sort of experience. Competition down the toilet when often matches are being won by a single point or even on centers.
But be fair there were plenty of comments about don't bag the opposition type and then plenty about poor websites and SEO the latter not being a reflection on the engineers only the lack of a slick marketing team.
Bad experiences drove rigorous testing to fix the competition requirements for accuracy, easier cheaper rebuilds.
The Government money for grants come from a royalty tax levied on raw product exported by the mining industry . The rest of the world pays it not our tax payers.
The 4/5 mic systems are being used at club level because of cost and time to organize the grants of the larger size $ being harder to obtain. In other words there are levels of grant money the larger the amount the harder to get.
Accuracy testing is not just about how good the system is new it is about when it starts to degrade and knowing how to quickly bring it back to standard at reasonable cost and time. F class shooting destroys targets very quickly acoustically and visibly . Without testing all systems no one knows what the issues are . Once you buy a system you are stuck with it. A low price point may exclude you from holding some competitions or size of event. High price could lock you into high repair bills and slow rebuilds times. Travel the world and look at what has been done don't reinvent the wheel learn from others who have already made the mistakes.
The Government money for grants come from a royalty tax levied on raw product exported by the mining industry . The rest of the world pays it not our tax payers.
The 4/5 mic systems are being used at club level because of cost and time to organize the grants of the larger size $ being harder to obtain. In other words there are levels of grant money the larger the amount the harder to get.
Accuracy testing is not just about how good the system is new it is about when it starts to degrade and knowing how to quickly bring it back to standard at reasonable cost and time. F class shooting destroys targets very quickly acoustically and visibly . Without testing all systems no one knows what the issues are . Once you buy a system you are stuck with it. A low price point may exclude you from holding some competitions or size of event. High price could lock you into high repair bills and slow rebuilds times. Travel the world and look at what has been done don't reinvent the wheel learn from others who have already made the mistakes.
One advantage of external mike systems is their performance does not degrade with the number of bullets through the target.
There is so much wrong with this. Please do not subject us on this forum with your political bias. Hint, there is no such thing as "government money".
Well then it is a tax on the world returned to the Aussie people as grants for sporting purposes and other projects which are not funded out of general revenue.
That is a good point.
Would also add the recurring costs ( and volunteer labor ) to the club or individual to repair / replace the membranes.
Correct but you do suffer with sighting issues as the aiming centre is destroyed and the doppler effect which is the wind offsetting the sound waves to the mics. The sighting issues can be moved out but not removed, you will learn this. Wish you luck with the wind. 8 mics will help but as you progress your learning curve you will see this issue becoming a problem as you test the systems for accuracy records. But then you could ignore it not tell anyone and keep shooting .
Hi Bindi2 ( name ? )
I'm fairly new here so I have not seen many of your posts except for in this thread. I see in your profile you are from Western Australia.
It sounds like you have done a lot of research and have a lot of experience.
May I ask?
Do you work for or have any business interests in any of the Electronic Target manufacturer's ?
Would you mind naming the system you use and the system you recommend ?
Again, sorry if this was posted already or known info and I just missed it.
Thank You,
George Smith
www.nfga.org
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If this works so well, why not fund your entire government with this tax on the world?
Probably enough. I believe we can deal with our accuracy issues on our own.
No business connections to ETs in any way.
My club and most of the State use Kongsbergs The State headquarters range is 72 ETs of which 48 have been upgraded from standard. Most of the clubs have had the upgrade done.
I have been repairing and improving them for 8+years. The target not the electronics.
My personal target is a SMT G2. I have also shot on Solos and shot marker. I have not shot on the Hexta targets or Ozzscore as yet though I am well aware of one Hexta system being used here but just not got to it yet. I think there maybe a Ozzscore but have no confirmation.
For major competition the closed systems are on top. For club shoots the open systems is fine. The 8 mic systems are relativity new here so testing is happening. The monitors used are a mile in front of any tablet or computer I have used. Visibility being the main issue and use by non computer/tablet literate shooters. This fact was and still amazing to me.
Neither system is without some issues. They are all physical in the design/construction or man made rough handling/lack of maintenance. Fit the Doppler issue to suit.
They keep giving most of it away as AID when our Vets and old struggle.
Businesses don’t stay in business long losing money. So if there is an import tax they simply up the cost of those goods to the Aussie to cover the tax. As noted earlier, nothing’s free and you are paying for it.
Very Good, Thank You.
Maybe once you get to test the new 8 mic systems you are getting there you could start a separate thread on that topic and post your observations.?.
Original Poster / All,
My apologies for this diversion off the primary topic / point of this thread.
G-
I am sure you can but instead of starting where the world is at you may not catch up till after you have made the same mistakes we have but then we will have moved on again.
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