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E-Targets for F-Class

I think a 10 second delay should be a NRA rule. Delay in effect or not shooters that want to send em down as fast as they can usually end up getting caught in a switch or better yet a big ol crossfire. I've witnessed it many times sometimes to my benefit not that it helps me though.
 
Dang it......I tried to sit this one out. Jade now you got me too:) Its simple, we all play by the same rules. 7 second delay, only last shot visible, mimic as close as we can manual pit service. Keep a standardization to our sport. Don't understand ANY of the points trying to be made by those that don't agree with that position?

What pulled me into this discussion after reading through was the reference to other sports and the different venues. Well here's my other sport analogy. We're in the middle of March Madness. They just played last week in 16 different venues with different coliseums, looks etc. I may be wrong but I think all use the SAME time on the shot clock. Same with NBA for different venues. Same for football play clocks regardless of where the game is played. Point being rules are set to have standards all can be judged as equally as possible. Lastly any National Records shot without delay should not count. Just my opinion. Damn you Jade

Pretty sure everyone told Jade not to do this, but he did it anyway.:p Thank you Jade for getting this important discussion going. It has been very civil!

I think this thread demonstrates that the overwhelming majority of active f-class shooters in the U.S. agree that the "delay" is a core part of what makes High Power a unique and wonderful shooting sport. The delayed nature of scoring forces competitors to shoot through different wind conditions and removing the delay fundamentally changes the sport. So, for discussions sake, if we mostly agree that a delay should be preserved, the next question is, "What should the delay be?" I was involved in creating the precedent for 7 seconds...a funny story for some other time. But, I will say I just pulled that number out of my arse a few years back.

February of this year, I decided to get some actual data and recorded the pull times at the Southwest Nationals: see attachment. Keep in mind that the SWNs have not one, but two pullers per target and it is safe to say these are the most experienced high power competitors in the country. Yes, there were a few intrepid targets with consistent 5 second pull times. But, the average pull time was 10 seconds...with two pullers per target.

I plan to continue gathering data and and suspect the average pull time will be somewhere near 12 seconds in matches with just one puller. I encourage all of you to gather your own data on average pull times....you might be surprised just how slow people are. :) This is one of the key reasons why High Power/F-Class is NOT the same as benchrest. I very much want to keep the wind-reading element of our sport just like it is today because it is what makes it so challenging and rewarding.

Respectfully,
Scott Harris

PS. we are in the final stages of standing up a club in Phoenix that will use the Shot Marker system: with a 10 second delay.
 

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Will your matches be registered/approved? That'd be great for AZ if so

Why not use the 7 second as per 10.17.1g?

Been a good discussion I feel as well.

Perhaps some of the passion and energy in this thread can be directed at growing the sport, and leveraging eTargets into introducing and growing more new shooters to start F-Class and bringing back former shooters :)
 
Will your matches be registered/approved? That'd be great for AZ if so

Why not use the 7 second as per 10.17.1g?

Been a good discussion I feel as well.

Perhaps some of the passion and energy in this thread can be directed at growing the sport, and leveraging eTargets into introducing and growing more new shooters to start F-Class and bringing back former shooters :)
Yes, half the matches will be NRA registered.
 
Belly Benchrest I think is here to stay. In the US did you used to have a 45 second rule where each shot must be fired within 45 seconds of the last? This has or is not at least used in 99.9% of the situations in Aus now I think it may only be used in the Bisley pair shooting. But when the talk of a delay came up so did the re introduction of this 45 second rule which when you think about it. Again makes it a sport more about wind reading than trying to shoot in a condition.
 
Belly Benchrest I think is here to stay. In the US did you used to have a 45 second rule where each shot must be fired within 45 seconds of the last? This has or is not at least used in 99.9% of the situations in Aus now I think it may only be used in the Bisley pair shooting. But when the talk of a delay came up so did the re introduction of this 45 second rule which when you think about it. Again makes it a sport more about wind reading than trying to shoot in a condition.

As far as I know the 45 seconds is only for pair firing during fullbore matches here in the states.
 
with a 10 second delay
I'm good with a 10 second delay. I think Lodi was 7 seconds. I think most shots I laid there that long waiting on my target to go down. (it never did, old habits are hard to break) As of right now, I'm not going to whine anymore about E targets. I'm pretty sure they are here to stay. Not that I'm ever going to like them, I'm going to accept the fact that some matches I attend are going to be shot on them, so get over it and go on.
 
You are right! He can be credited with the wrong score. He might have shot a 7 and the crossfire hit the ten ring, so he would be credited with the ten points. In most cases, the e-targets we are using today have the ability to determine speed differences between the shots as well as angle of entry to help rule out crossfires and make sure the shooter gets the appropriate score. Also, it is my understanding that they can do all of that whether there is a delay or no delay.

Not all ETs have the same features as the Shotmarker which are a new addition to the ET market.
 
It is too bad that the others haven’t kept up with the times! Evolution!
Not so.

My target system in Australia - Ozscore - has ALL the features discussed here in this current thread plus many more, and has had for more than five years. Probably close to 10 years in some cases.

Such as:
  • Last shot only shown OR all previous shots (shooter option)
  • 0 (meaning no delay) to 15 second variable delay between shots (firing line not shooter option - is a range configuration parameter)
  • Colour optimisation to suit colour blind shooters
  • Automatic cross fire detection regardless of delay set.
  • multiple club score correlation on a single system. That means more than one club (up to ten actually) can share the same firing line system and have the scores attributed to shooters on a club basis.
  • Time of Flight measurement to 1 mSec accuracy and resolution. An enhancement often used in conjunction with chronograph (MV) data. Provides TOF SD (Std Dev)
  • Multiple shooters per physical target. Up to six per target, and each target group consisting of up to six targets. Meaning with six targets up to 36 firing points supported. Generally only up to four firing points per target however - virtually all sites are 2 onto 1 (eg, 4 firing points using 2 targets), some 3 onto 1 (like 6 firing points using two targets), and in one case for a while 4 firing points onto 1 target).
  • Stage (string timing) both up and down counter with warning periods highlighted.
  • Shot measurement quality indication (in MOA or mm)
  • Group data - height, diameter, and MPI.
  • No dependency on accurate terminal velocity measurement. No possibility of "shrinking group" and associated phenomena. Time to sensors (meaning distance from impact point to sensors) only required.
  • Purpose built 12" daylight readable and weather proof colour touchscreens powered either individually or from common source (like generator) meaning no power failures due to flat batteries. 12VDC to 30VDC (DC voltage) and anywhere in between suitable without modification. 24VDC optimal.
  • Ruggedised cabling - a late enhancement now that it is clear how treatment of the equipment degrades them.
  • Wifi or copper networking option between firing point mound units. A copper network separates shooter networking from spectator requirements - no competition. Copper networking (not using TCP/IP) is also much more stable - wifi has proven problematic for club shooting over the years. The point is, moving to copper is an option - and has been taken up.
  • Browser connectivity by spectators on the mound by tablets, phones, etc.
  • Realtime (or close - TOF + maybe 2 seconds from shot fired) availability of shot result via internet.
  • Post shoot results (with shot pattern on target) available on internet.
  • Display zoom in/out capability (not unique). But once zoomed in far enough shot comes within perspective with scoring rings and grows as zoom in continues. Size of spotter based on calibre used or standard gauging (7.82mm in Australia). This is not a shooter option.
  • Automatic sighter management - can be overridden by shooter.
  • Shooter controlled vertical sight input via touchscreen for load development purposes (so that the computer knows about sight adjustments when calculating group heights)
  • Each mound unit knows who the shooter is (a shooter enters their assigned number when setting up along with shooting discipline (TR, F-open, F-std, or F/TR).
  • Score calculations are automatic dependent on discipline set.
  • 7, 10, 11 (2nd stage for Queensland), 15, and 20 shot strings plus two optional sighters supported.
These are a few that come to mind. There are many more features that have been provided for in some case ten years.

Who is catching up???

Geoff Roberts
Ozscore.
 
Are you going to replace your Shotmarker when there is a new model with new features? I doubt it.

Fear Not...
Adam gas a proven track record of great customer service. He stands by and takes care of his customers as good or better than anyone in any industry I have ever dealt with.

I was an early adopter of ShotMarker early last year buying two targets to try (sensor hubs #42 & #43 ). They were 100 percent perfect for slow fire, single load 200 standing and 600 prone. Belly only or Bench shooters were 100% good to go with his 1st revision of hardware.

They were only around 97% perfect in rapid fire with occasional missed shots. I got my club to buy 4 more anyway knowing Adam is a smart young man and is working hard to mature / perfect his baby. His next generation sensors are proving to be around 99% perfect for rapid fire stages.

I just got mt club to buy 4 more systems of the new style sensors and Adam was extremely fair in upgrading all my 1st generation hardware.

We now have 10 and all of our XTC and Prone matches will be fired on them this year and beyond.

Buy ShotMarker with confidence.
 
Not so.

My target system in Australia - Ozscore - has ALL the features discussed here in this current thread plus many more, and has had for more than five years. Probably close to 10 years in some cases.

Such as:
  • Last shot only shown OR all previous shots (shooter option)
  • 0 (meaning no delay) to 15 second variable delay between shots (firing line not shooter option - is a range configuration parameter)
  • Colour optimisation to suit colour blind shooters
  • Automatic cross fire detection regardless of delay set.
  • multiple club score correlation on a single system. That means more than one club (up to ten actually) can share the same firing line system and have the scores attributed to shooters on a club basis.
  • Time of Flight measurement to 1 mSec accuracy and resolution. An enhancement often used in conjunction with chronograph (MV) data. Provides TOF SD (Std Dev)
  • Multiple shooters per physical target. Up to six per target, and each target group consisting of up to six targets. Meaning with six targets up to 36 firing points supported. Generally only up to four firing points per target however - virtually all sites are 2 onto 1 (eg, 4 firing points using 2 targets), some 3 onto 1 (like 6 firing points using two targets), and in one case for a while 4 firing points onto 1 target).
  • Stage (string timing) both up and down counter with warning periods highlighted.
  • Shot measurement quality indication (in MOA or mm)
  • Group data - height, diameter, and MPI.
  • No dependency on accurate terminal velocity measurement. No possibility of "shrinking group" and associated phenomena. Time to sensors (meaning distance from impact point to sensors) only required.
  • Purpose built 12" daylight readable and weather proof colour touchscreens powered either individually or from common source (like generator) meaning no power failures due to flat batteries. 12VDC to 30VDC (DC voltage) and anywhere in between suitable without modification. 24VDC optimal.
  • Ruggedised cabling - a late enhancement now that it is clear how treatment of the equipment degrades them.
  • Wifi or copper networking option between firing point mound units. A copper network separates shooter networking from spectator requirements - no competition. Copper networking (not using TCP/IP) is also much more stable - wifi has proven problematic for club shooting over the years. The point is, moving to copper is an option - and has been taken up.
  • Browser connectivity by spectators on the mound by tablets, phones, etc.
  • Realtime (or close - TOF + maybe 2 seconds from shot fired) availability of shot result via internet.
  • Post shoot results (with shot pattern on target) available on internet.
  • Display zoom in/out capability (not unique). But once zoomed in far enough shot comes within perspective with scoring rings and grows as zoom in continues. Size of spotter based on calibre used or standard gauging (7.82mm in Australia). This is not a shooter option.
  • Automatic sighter management - can be overridden by shooter.
  • Shooter controlled vertical sight input via touchscreen for load development purposes (so that the computer knows about sight adjustments when calculating group heights)
  • Each mound unit knows who the shooter is (a shooter enters their assigned number when setting up along with shooting discipline (TR, F-open, F-std, or F/TR).
  • Score calculations are automatic dependent on discipline set.
  • 7, 10, 11 (2nd stage for Queensland), 15, and 20 shot strings plus two optional sighters supported.
These are a few that come to mind. There are many more features that have been provided for in some case ten years.

Who is catching up???

Geoff Roberts
Ozscore.

That sounds great. Get the price point down around the $1k USD mark and they’ll be a contender.
 
That sounds great. Get the price point down around the $1k USD mark and they’ll be a contender.
Can't be done so I won't bother. I guess I am in a position to take such a view. I am not actively marketing my system.

My point was that it was incorrect to state that we other ET designers needed to "catch up". A couple of us are way ahead of what you have on offer on North America right now and have been for some years.

I could probably get a system out there for $1k if I was prepared to tolerate basic cheap display devices with unreliable wifi to be used with it. But my blood pressure (already high) would suffer from all the support calls resulting. I can live with out all that! You see, my system includes the display devices (and other hardware) that are purpose built for the environment they are intended to be used in. That doesn't come cheap. They work, and keep working. Those that use them love them. However, when I look at the cost of an iPad these days, I'm not too far away when it comes to dollars.

Mine is not intended to be a "personal" system - it is designed and intended for club and/or competition use where a these features are probably of more use - and value. It can't compete against cheap "personal" systems designed for use out on the farm (or wherever) that do little other than show a shot position, but are being used in club or competition environments that really have a different set of engineering and operational requirements. So I don't bother. Why should I build all these features in and give it all away? Is my time and effort in putting all these features in worth nothing? Should the people who make quality hardware give it away? Do any of you work for nothing? Are you all happy to use the cheapest technology available lacking in all sorts of features and capabilities that lend well to major high stakes competition events where you expect shooters to spend literally thousands of dollars to turn up and use the cheapest display devices, hardware, whatever, available? And then make up all the excuses when it fails? Wifi doesn't work properly (or at all)? Batteries are flat. Too many people with wifi gadgets on the mound behind shooters chewing up all bandwidth resources of the [cheapest] wireless technology availablei even when not actually using them - because the things automatically want to connect because they did so once before - thus starving shooters of this resource? Damn! Let's make excuses.

Put simply, do you really expect cheap laptops, tablets, the cheapest wifi technology, what have you, to perform in crap weather, dust, grit, heat, cold, wet, for any length of time? Most of the tablets I have seen can't last the length of time required to run through a stage of three hours without the battery going flat - due to the high brilliance required for it to be seen in sunlight? Eventually batteries in these devices die. Some of them can't be replaced - you need to buy a new device. Is this what you expect shooters to come from afar at great expense to have to deal with?

Things like presenting competition shooting to the world at large, via the internet for example. You want the sports to grow but there is no spectator value in a $1k system. Do you want it to be a spectator sport that might entice young people (and not just young) to see what it is all about without having to actually be on a firing mound somewhere looking at a mobile phone on the mound? Or do you want it to simply remain an insular activity that satisfies only the immediate participants? This sort of technology and capability costs.

You get what you pay for. For the most part. If your standards and expectations are low, then I suppose paying bottom dollar and living with what you get (and expecting everyone else to do likewise) is how it is.
 
Can't be done so I won't bother. I guess I am in a position to take such a view. I am not actively marketing my system.

My point was that it was incorrect to state that we other ET designers needed to "catch up". A couple of us are way ahead of what you have on offer on North America right now and have been for some years.

I could probably get a system out there for $1k if I was prepared to tolerate basic cheap display devices with unreliable wifi to be used with it. But my blood pressure (already high) would suffer from all the support calls resulting. I can live with out all that! You see, my system includes the display devices (and other hardware) that are purpose built for the environment they are intended to be used in. That doesn't come cheap. They work, and keep working. Those that use them love them. However, when I look at the cost of an iPad these days, I'm not too far away when it comes to dollars.

Mine is not intended to be a "personal" system - it is designed and intended for club and/or competition use where a these features are probably of more use - and value. It can't compete against cheap "personal" systems designed for use out on the farm (or wherever) that do little other than show a shot position, but are being used in club or competition environments that really have a different set of engineering and operational requirements. So I don't bother. Why should I build all these features in and give it all away? Is my time and effort in putting all these features in worth nothing? Should the people who make quality hardware give it away? Do any of you work for nothing? Are you all happy to use the cheapest technology available lacking in all sorts of features and capabilities that lend well to major high stakes competition events where you expect shooters to spend literally thousands of dollars to turn up and use the cheapest display devices, hardware, whatever, available? And then make up all the excuses when it fails? Wifi doesn't work properly (or at all)? Batteries are flat. Too many people with wifi gadgets on the mound behind shooters chewing up all bandwidth resources of the [cheapest] wireless technology availablei even when not actually using them - because the things automatically want to connect because they did so once before - thus starving shooters of this resource? Damn! Let's make excuses.

Put simply, do you really expect cheap laptops, tablets, the cheapest wifi technology, what have you, to perform in crap weather, dust, grit, heat, cold, wet, for any length of time? Most of the tablets I have seen can't last the length of time required to run through a stage of three hours without the battery going flat - due to the high brilliance required for it to be seen in sunlight? Eventually batteries in these devices die. Some of them can't be replaced - you need to buy a new device. Is this what you expect shooters to come from afar at great expense to have to deal with?

Things like presenting competition shooting to the world at large, via the internet for example. You want the sports to grow but there is no spectator value in a $1k system. Do you want it to be a spectator sport that might entice young people (and not just young) to see what it is all about without having to actually be on a firing mound somewhere looking at a mobile phone on the mound? Or do you want it to simply remain an insular activity that satisfies only the immediate participants? This sort of technology and capability costs.

You get what you pay for. For the most part. If your standards and expectations are low, then I suppose paying bottom dollar and living with what you get (and expecting everyone else to do likewise) is how it is.

Believe me, I get it. I am a member at 3 different shooting clubs in my home state, and due to finances, your system can't reasonably be considered for installation at any of them. As great as it sounds (and I've heard that it is indeed great), financial reality dictates that we can only consider options that we can afford. I think you will find that to be the case at *most* clubs in the US. At the end of the day, it's just a hobby.
 

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