E-Targets for F-Class

[Crow]

Gotta disagree with that... e-targets bring alot of benefits. Equalized pit service, shorter times to get through a match, scoring made easier, etc.... From what I've seen of their use, they appear to be bringing increased participation to the sport.

I'm pretty sure e-targets are here to stay. F-class is a swell discipline, but there is room for improvement.

 

[ShootDots]

Here are some observations:
1.) E-Targets are here to stay whether some or all of us like it or not; 2.) Most ranges do not currently have E-Targets at this juncture; 3.) If we do not institute a delay of some relevance, F-Class is playing on 2 different fields; 4.) It only takes a push of a button to command a delay, thus flattening out the playing field between Pull Targets and E-Targets>>>>until at least MOST of the ranges obtain E-Targets; 5.) A delay neither hurts nor changes the way F-Class has been run up to this point; 6.) NOT Having a delay DOES in fact change the fundamental way F-Class has been in operation.

Taking these observations into consideration, why not institute a delay at least until the time comes where MOST of the ranges use E-Targets. That will be a few years and maybe by that time, thoughts on the use or non-use of a delay will have solidified by most of the competitors. Then we, as a group of competitors at MOST ranges, can petition the NRA one way or the other. Not everyone will be satisfied whether a delay is mandated or if one is NOT mandated>>>but it will put everyone on the same playing field. After all, is not this what we are striving for while we are making technological advancements?

 

[Bindi2]

Those that want a delay would appear to have never dealt with crossfires. They are more common than most people think because the target never goes down. An average to good scorer will pick the crossfire without a delay no hope with. One way to destroy a shooters concentration put a shot on his target to hold up shooting for several minutes while the RO sorts out who did what from where. Been done and got away with because the scorer was not doing his job noticing a shot had been fired and no score registered.

 

[Scott Harris]

Those that want a delay would appear to have never dealt with crossfires. They are more common than most people think because the target never goes down. An average to good scorer will pick the crossfire without a delay no hope with. One way to destroy a shooters concentration put a shot on his target to hold up shooting for several minutes while the RO sorts out who did what from where. Been done and got away with because the scorer was not doing his job noticing a shot had been fired and no score registered.

BS. If the shooter and scorer agree the shooter did not fire, you simply zero out the shot and move on....just like manual targets. and just like manual targets, if the scorer is sleeping, this causes problems. Next.

 

[Bindi2]

when there is a delay you don't know who fired which shot.

 

[Harbie33]

As a scorer, I am focussed on the shooter to see when he has fired before looking towards the target, to see it go down and then record the indicated score when it comes back up, or on an ET the screen to see and record the score of the last shot registered. The shooter obviously is focussed on the target. So on a manual target there is visual indication of a problem. Ie: if the target goes down before they fire the shooter will bring it to the scorers attention, generally quite loudly, and in the case of a shooter who crossfired he and his scorer will have a target doesn't go down.

It has been my experience competing on 5 different brands of E-targets that a miss is usually indicated by a vocal shooter blaming the obviously faulty ET and even if that isn't the case it can be quite easily identified by an alert scorer, particularly if another target has a stray shot. The main problem is that if it is a crossfire and not just a complete miss, both the shooter and the scorer on the target with the extraneous shot have been focussed on something other than the screen until after a shot is fired and quite often have no idea which the last two shots is actually the shooters. How this situation would be dealt with depends on the rules the match is shot under but I can't see how a delay would make it any harder to distinguish a crossfire but could see how it would make it easier to miss a miss.

 

[Bindi2]

As a scorer, I am focussed on the shooter to see when he has fired before looking towards the target, to see it go down and then record the indicated score when it comes back up, or on an ET the screen to see and record the score of the last shot registered. The shooter obviously is focussed on the target. So on a manual target there is visual indication of a problem. Ie: if the target goes down before they fire the shooter will bring it to the scorers attention, generally quite loudly, and in the case of a shooter who crossfired he and his scorer will have a target doesn't go down.

It has been my experience competing on 5 different brands of E-targets that a miss is usually indicated by a vocal shooter blaming the obviously faulty ET and even if that isn't the case it can be quite easily identified by an alert scorer, particularly if another target has a stray shot. The main problem is that if it is a crossfire and not just a complete miss, both the shooter and the scorer on the target with the extraneous shot have been focussed on something other than the screen until after a shot is fired and quite often have no idea which the last two shots is actually the shooters. How this situation would be dealt with depends on the rules the match is shot under but I can't see how a delay would make it any harder to distinguish a crossfire but could see how it would make it easier to miss a miss.

With a delay the screen does not show anything until the delay has run its time then it shows the hit or two hits in order of hit, you can not tell which belongs to whom The current rules here say the shooter gets the highest score which may not be correct or if to much time has elapsed he gets an optional sighter still not ideal. Another shooter could loose the match because of this inaccurate method. Options are if correct shot can not be identified in real time both shots cancelled extra shot allowed miss recorded on crossfirer.

 

[XTR]

when there is a delay you don't know who fired which shot.

Bindi2, we've had this discussion before. In the US it is simple. There is a rule whether or not it's paper or e targets. This is a red herring.

• 10.17.4 Cross Fire (c) If a competitor receives a confirmed cross-fire shot and it is impossible to determine which shot is his, he must be credited with the value of the highest undetermined shot

Adam at Shot Marker has said that the current multi mic systems have the capability of identifying cross fires. Another argument that is just a code issue.

 

[Bindi2]

Bindi2, we've had this discussion before. In the US it is simple. There is a rule whether or not it's paper or e targets. This is a red herring.

• 10.17.4 Cross Fire (c) If a competitor receives a confirmed cross-fire shot and it is impossible to determine which shot is his, he must be credited with the value of the highest undetermined shot

Adam at Shot Marker has said that the current multi mic systems have the capability of identifying cross fires. Another argument that is just a code issue.

The rule on crossfire is wrong because the shooter can be credited the wrong score. No delay ETs can mostly sort this issue. Rule 10.17.4 is a hangover from manual targets.

 

[Highpower-FClass]

The rule on crossfire is wrong...

There will always be opportunities for two shots hitting the same target, with or without delays. What score would be awarded when shooting e-targets? The lower score? Or at the scorers discretion? Or the shooters discretion? Rule 10.17.4 is needed whether delay or not.

 

[ShootDots]

The rule on crossfire is wrong because the shooter can be credited the wrong score. No delay ETs can mostly sort this issue. Rule 10.17.4 is a hangover from manual targets.

Let me get this right.. I do not want a delay because a "non-delay" system can MOSTLY sort it out? I am supposed to throw out the delay while we still have the vast majority of pull targets on line, thus relegating shooters to 2 different playing fields? I would rather have the delay, keeping the playing field even throughout all ranges, than to split it up for a crossfire situation that MAY or MAY NOT get sorted out, whether or not there is a delay... I don't get your reasoning.. Maybe I am missing something..

 

[skibar_tx]

The rule on crossfire is wrong because the shooter can be credited the wrong score. No delay ETs can mostly sort this issue. Rule 10.17.4 is a hangover from manual targets.

You are right! He can be credited with the wrong score. He might have shot a 7 and the crossfire hit the ten ring, so he would be credited with the ten points. In most cases, the e-targets we are using today have the ability to determine speed differences between the shots as well as angle of entry to help rule out crossfires and make sure the shooter gets the appropriate score. Also, it is my understanding that they can do all of that whether there is a delay or no delay.

 

[Zilla]

The rule on crossfire is wrong because the shooter can be credited the wrong score. No delay ETs can mostly sort this issue. Rule 10.17.4 is a hangover from manual targets.

 

[Colnagotex]

You are right! He can be credited with the wrong score. He might have shot a 7 and the crossfire hit the ten ring, so he would be credited with the ten points. In most cases, the e-targets we are using today have the ability to determine speed differences between the shots as well as angle of entry to help rule out crossfires and make sure the shooter gets the appropriate score. Also, it is my understanding that they can do all of that whether there is a delay or no delay.

You're correct Skip. I know because I cross fired in a match recently(hopefully my one and only) on a Shot Marker system and the competitor next to me quickly alerted me that they had a crossfire on their target and the speed and angle were different than their string of fire.... I left him a nice "X" but it was sorted out in a few seconds, not minutes. It was much easier than manually working it out and left no doubt about who fired which bullet. Again--the scorer has to stay awake and watch the shooter and the target, either down range(live target) or in their hands(Ipad) in either case.

 

[Jennb]

You are right! He can be credited with the wrong score. He might have shot a 7 and the crossfire hit the ten ring, so he would be credited with the ten points. In most cases, the e-targets we are using today have the ability to determine speed differences between the shots as well as angle of entry to help rule out crossfires and make sure the shooter gets the appropriate score. Also, it is my understanding that they can do all of that whether there is a delay or no delay.

You are correct Skip. And with the ability to tell the entry angle of a shot they can be reviewed during the 30 minute challenge period at the end of shooting and be corrected. One good thing about ETs is time of shot is logged also allowing for more accurate results.

Also IMO the delay or no delay is more of an open shooter thing. I know there are probably a number of ftr shooters that can run and gun but it makes crossfiring a issue because you have to get back on target after a shot. I am just not that fast and really don’t want to be but to keep things equal for everyone I feel a delay is in order.

 

[ngb1787]

OPENING DAY MLB-TAKE ME OUT TO THE BALL GAME! Maybe we can use e targets for mlb strike zone with pitches? Wonder how many pages that thread will be? Lol

 

[Crow]

Aside from yardages and target sizes, what two ranges are identical? I don't get around as much as most on this thread, but at the different venues I've shot at there seem to be almost as many differences as similarities - different topography, firing lines, target carriers, etc... point being that about all you can do for parity is insure that everyone shooting in a particular match has about the same opportunity as the next guy. There simply isn't a way to achieve total parity between venues, great as that would be.

I'm compelled to add that I'm keenly aware of all the current and former NR holders posting here, and my hat's off to each and every one of you. Impressive feats all, but how many guys at matches really care about what the current national record is? Makes me wonder if there were a separate category for records shot on e-targets, wouldn't all the arguments for parity be somewhat moot?

The advent of accurate and affordable e-targets is sort of a seminal moment for F-class shooting. We ought to take advantage of all the capabilities e-targets offer and see where it leads, rather than looking for excuses to water them down.

 

[rardoin]

OPENING DAY MLB-TAKE ME OUT TO THE BALL GAME! Maybe we can use e targets for mlb strike zone with pitches? Wonder how many pages that thread will be? Lol

When pitchers can throw supersonic E-'plates' will be needed.

 

[rardoin]

The advent of accurate and affordable e-targets is sort of a seminal moment for F-class shooting. We ought to take advantage of all the capabilities e-targets offer and see where it leads, rather than looking for excuses to water them down.

Thumbs up!

 

[Toejoe12]

Dang it......I tried to sit this one out. Jade now you got me too Its simple, we all play by the same rules. 7 second delay, only last shot visible, mimic as close as we can manual pit service. Keep a standardization to our sport. Don't understand ANY of the points trying to be made by those that don't agree with that position?

What pulled me into this discussion after reading through was the reference to other sports and the different venues. Well here's my other sport analogy. We're in the middle of March Madness. They just played last week in 16 different venues with different coliseums, looks etc. I may be wrong but I think all use the SAME time on the shot clock. Same with NBA for different venues. Same for football play clocks regardless of where the game is played. Point being rules are set to have standards all can be judged as equally as possible. Lastly any National Records shot without delay should not count. Just my opinion. Damn you Jade