Proof research barrels

[BoydAllen]

All of the rifles that my friend has built using Proof barrels were for game hunting use, and I am pretty sure that all of them had muzzle brakes installed. Long shot strings and even heating characteristics were not major factors. Weight and performance for short shot strings were the primary considerations. They have worked very well in those applications...very well. The customers that bought them have enough money that the additional cost was not a consideration, as long as they got what they were looking for.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

POI shift during a 50 round slow fire test From the first 3-5shot groups to the last 3-5shot groups
Hvy palma .32 moa
CA Carbon .35 moa
M24 .45 moa
Hvy palma fluted .47 moa
Proof Carbon .88 moa
light palma 1.35 moa

None of this info holds any relevance. So many other possibilities that can cause POI shifts. Ammo, scope/reticle movement under recoil, weather, poor bedding jobs, etc. Then the fact that only one of each barrel was tested. I would completely disregard that test.

 

[Clancy]

So many skeptics out there.... some with well thought out questions and others that are too cheap to buy one or too set in their ways.

Other than on rifles with very trim stocks, I doubt I ever shoot anything but carbon wrapped barrels going forward.

 

[fredo]

I'm lost on the devil's advocate, IMO you are just adamantly opposed to a carbon wrapped barrel, for whatever reason.

If you mean adamant about wanting to actually SEE the "proof", then...yes. My questions are simply a means to getting to that end. I've never been the type to just believe stuff, because someone said it was so...

Let's keep it real simple. Please explain how a (wrapped) barrel can both heat up slower AND cool faster, than a steel barrel...at the same time?!?

What voodoo, which seemingly flies directly in the face of established thermodynamics, allows for this phenomenon???

Course, instead of addressing that anomaly, you choose to dismiss (me personally). That's fine, it's the easy way out when one has no valid response to a valid question. Common practice, nowadays...

 

[B23]

Kind of wish FrankG with Bartlein Barrel would chime in a little more because it's my guess he could shed considerably more light on the subject and probably knows a lot more about this topic than the majority of us.

Like I said in a previous post, I like CF wrapped barrels but ONLY because I like how they look, especially when you add a matching dia. muzzle brake, not because they really offer any advantage over an all steel barrel.

 

[Milo 2.0]

Course, instead of addressing that anomaly, you choose to dismiss (me personally). That's fine, it's the easy way out when one has no valid response to a valid question. Common practice, nowadays...

I don't have the answers, nor do I care really. I've had one Proof carbon spun on compared to 35 reg SS barrels in the last 10 yrs. It has worked great for what it's intended purpose was meant to be. The reviews or ratings from users has been extremely high for a controversial product. They just seem to work.

I did not dismiss you in any way, I more or less said carbon wrap is not for you, and most of us got that part after you had 4 of the first 35 posts stating it. If you get the anomalies figured out, post it up. In the meantime I'll let the kid keep throwing rds down ours and enjoying it.

 

[Clancy]

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[memilanuk]

OK, so I've argued with Brian wayy' too much to ask him this question directly but I'll ask all reading here...... "HITH!! was THIS "test" conducted???!!!"

Read the book? Just a thought...

POI shift during a 50 round slow fire test From the first 3-5shot groups to the last 3-5shot groups

Hvy palma .32 moa
CA Carbon .35 moa
M24 .45 moa
Hvy palma fluted .47 moa
Proof Carbon .88 moa
light palma 1.35 moa

When I read that the first time myself, I thought "well there ya go, the CF barrels are crap".

More recently, I was re-reading that chapter looking for something else, and noticed a blurb tucked away in either the paragraph above or below that table, which mentioned that up until about 30+ shots in, the PR barrel POI shift was somewhere in the low .3x moa range, or pretty much inline with the better results shown. Given most people's use cases for CF barrels, that puts a little different 'spin' on things.

 

[Jesse Gietzen]

I have a CA and a PR carbon barrel and have done load development for several more of each. All shoot very well.
CA says they make their barrels in house. they wrap them in house, but used to say they ordered the blanks from shilen. this may have changed.
Brian Litz has a chapter in his new book Modern Advancements In Long Range Shooting Vol.II with a chapter comparing Proof and Christensen CF barrels to steel.
A couple of his findings ( there are 32 pages):

CF barrels cool more quickly than steel but also heat up faster. in the tests i saw, the proof composite also heated more slowly. it's shedding heat sooner with its lower thermal mass.

Heavy steel barrels (m24 and hvy palma) are stiffer than CF. i would bet money anything steel medium sporter and up is also stiffer. haha...

POI shift during a 50 round slow fire test From the first 3-5shot groups to the last 3-5shot groups
Hvy palma .32 moa
CA Carbon .35 moa
M24 .45 moa
Hvy palma fluted .47 moa
Proof Carbon .88 moa
light palma 1.35 moa

much respect to mr. litz, first of all. this was an old test (relative to advancements in production), and believe me, proof (or at least the nerd department) was very aware of litz's findings. they also had theories as to why those barrels performed as poorly as they did in the test. because, let's be honest, those findings are not gonna make anyone want to put their money down on something with performance like that. i believe litz received one of the early designed barrels that had a delamination issue between the steel and carbon fiber. the barrels come off the contour lathe and are coated in coolant and oil, as well as any pvc they pull off the tube on the cart that takes them to the winder. the winder operator has to clean the oil and any pvc off the barrel prior to winding, this is absolutely critical. and (this was before i started working there) early on there was not a huge emphasis on pre-wind cleaning. i was anal about cleaning the barrels, and at the time i left the barrels actually were cleaned twice prior to winding. i think if mr. litz ran a newer barrel through this test, the results would not be so unacceptable.

 

[Jesse Gietzen]

Let's keep it real simple. Please explain how a (wrapped) barrel can both heat up slower AND cool faster, than a steel barrel...at the same time?!?

What voodoo, which seemingly flies directly in the face of established thermodynamics, allows for this phenomenon???

lower thermal mass. it begins shedding heat almost immediately, while the heat hasn't even reached the outside of the steel yet. stop asking technical questions, you're going to get me in way over my head! haha

 

[PWS]

This thread got me to Googling (is that a word...?) yesterday. Lots of interesting things being done with carbon fiber on barrels these days. BSF is making a carbon tube "tensioner" setup that only touches at the breech and muzzle, Teludyne and Dracos are making sleeved barrels with filler cores etc. This CF thing might actually be advancing the state of the art of barrel manufacture?

 

[fredo]

I did not dismiss you in any way, I more or less said carbon wrap is not for you, and most of us got that part after you had 4 of the first 35 posts stating it.

Yes, ya did...by "ass"uming that I'm incapable of being convinced by some actual valid info, beyond "they look cool". Then, ya exaggerate to sidestep that fact. No worries, though...

If you get the anomalies figured out, post it up. In the meantime I'll let the kid keep throwing rds down ours and enjoying it.

Sorry, the burden of 'proof' isn't on ME...I'm the potential consumer! And, as of right now, there's been nothing tangible enough to convince me to spend twice the price of a quality stainless barrel. Or, 1.5x the price of a quality stainless fluted barrel that will near match a wrapped one in weight, and cool faster than solid...

This crap reminds me of peelosi arguing that Congress hasta pass 'affordable healthcare act' to find out what's in the bill!

So, I ain't buyin' ANY barrel that's 2x market value of proven product (wrapped or otherwise), until these fabulous claims of superiority are substantiated with something more than aesthetics...

 

[FURMAN]

This topic has come up on a couple of other forums. In all cases the naysayers' minds can not be changed. Who cares? If you don't want a carbon barrel don't buy one. Move on and stop trashing them. I personally do not see myself using a steel barrel for hunting ever again but that could change. I also could not care less if others share my opinion about them. I also don't care to justify my reasons to those who don't already understand.

 

[Milo 2.0]

Yes, ya did...by "ass"uming that I'm incapable of being convinced by some actual valid info, beyond "they look cool". Then, ya exaggerate to sidestep that fact. No worries, though...




Sorry, the burden of 'proof' isn't on ME...I'm the potential consumer! And, as of right now, there's been nothing tangible enough to convince me to spend twice the price of a quality stainless barrel. Or, 1.5x the price of a quality stainless fluted barrel that will near match a wrapped one in weight, and cool faster than solid...

This crap reminds me of peelosi arguing that Congress hasta pass 'affordable healthcare act' to find out what's in the bill!

So, I ain't buyin' ANY barrel that's 2x market value of proven product (wrapped or otherwise), until these fabulous claims of superiority are substantiated with something more than aesthetics...

Whatever, < now that's a dismissal!

 

[fredo]

Funny thing is, nobody's asking those who owns wrapped barrels to defend their purchase. Yet, some seem so defensive about it, that they dismiss valid questions concerns from potential consumers as "trashing"...

THAT ain't doing anyone, any good.

And it sure ain't addressing any technical questions about what makes barrel 'x' better than barrel 'y'. Which, when ya shred the personal BS away, is what we all would like to know...yes?

 

[Delfuego]

 

[fredo]

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[Milo 2.0]

 

[Milo 2.0]

And it sure ain't addressing any technical questions about what makes barrel 'x' better than barrel 'y'. Which, when ya shred the personal BS away, is what we all would like to know...yes?

Even if some truthful facts concerning Proof wrapped barrels came forward, you are not going to believe it anyway. Stick a fork in it and call it done.

 

[fredo]

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