You never said what equipment you currently have. I would never use a progressive press for precision reloads. Get a single stage press, buy good bushing full length die and micrometer seater. A priming tool, and universal decapper. Dont decap and size in same step. You may have most of what is "needed" for ftr reloading, its a deep rabbit hole you decide how deep to go.
F/TR Loading Setup - starting from scratch
- Thread starter radford56
- Start date
I measure down to .02 gr. Throw charge off chargemaster then put on the analytical balance and get it to .02gr. the lowest my scale weighs to.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I measure powder to approximately 1/2 kernel, maybe a tick less. It's not difficult if you have a good MRF balance. Some may find an auto trickler useful, but it's not essential as you can easily trickle single kernels by hand. Weighing powder to that level of precision is definitely more than you need for F-TR, but then you never have to worry about charge weight variance while on the line shooting.
I'm also going to take a different view about the rifle versus reloading than Damon. IMO - the difference between a 0.50 MOA setup and a 0.25 MOA can very easily have something to do with the reloading/load. Certainly, you have to have a rifle capable of shooting quarter MOA groups, but you also have to know how to arrive at a precise and consistent tune with your loads or the total package will never perform to its maximum capability. Shooting 5-shot groups consistently under 0.3 MOA with an F-TR rifle requires that everything be right, both the rifle setup and the load. As far as the load, that means good brass, properly prepped with very consistent neck tension, precise charge weights, uniform bullets, and primers that are properly matched to your powder, bullet weight, and case capacity.
As far as using a .22lr as a training tool, I have one, and am not fully convinced of its usefulness as an F-TR training aid. A couple years ago I purchased a CZ455 Varmint Precision Trainer in a Manners T4 stock specifically for use as an F-TR practice tool. Other than weight, it was pretty similar to my F-TR rifles. In order to get it to shoot to my satisfaction, I ultimately had it re-barreled with a 3-groove Benchmark barrel and a Lilja Match chamber, and had it properly bedded. I adjusted the factory trigger to ~1.2 lb, which is only slightly heavier than my F-TR rifles, which are set at ~14-15 oz. I also slapped a NF 12-42x56 BR scope on it. After all these modifications, the rifle will consistently shoot half MOA (or slightly better) groups with Eley Tenex ammo at 100 yds off a bipod under minimal wind conditions. Even though the Eley Tenex isn't cheap as far as rimfire ammo goes, it's still way less expensive than a comparable number of handloaded centerfire rounds, especially when you include the time involved in the reloading process.
IMO - there are two noticeable differences between my .22lr setup and my .223/.308 centerfire F-TR rifles. The first is that the barrel dwell time of the relatively slow .22lr match ammo (~1050 fps) is much longer than is found with a typical F-TR centerfire cartridge. You literally have to hold the scope absolutely still on the POA much longer until the bullet clears the bore or you will throw the shot off. This is not in itself a bad thing, just noticeably different. The second difference as Jeremy and Brad mentioned above is the almost complete lack of recoil. It is even markedly less than a .223 F-TR rifle shooting 90s. If you practice too much with a rimfire rifle (or a .223) and then pull out your .308 with 185+ gr bullets, your ability to manage the recoil properly will very likely suffer. Perhaps this also depends a lot on the individual shooter; for me it was an issue. My take on this idea is that if you want to practice with a .22lr or even a .223, but routinely shoot a .308 in competition, then most people will also need to shoot and practice with the .308 on a regular basis. Too much (or even exclusive) practice with the lighter recoiling calibers may cause you problems with gun handling after switching back to your F-TR rifle. So it can certainly be done, just be aware of the possible issues with too much practice using a setup that may be markedly different than what you actually intend to shoot in competition and adjust your practice regimen accordingly.
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My goal, and those competitors I know with the FX-120/Autotrickler combination try to hit a load right on the money; 30.32 gr for example. The precision of the FX-120 is .02gr, so you can assume the charge weight isn't very far off your goal. If the Autotrickler misses, which mine does less than half the time, it would read 30.30 or 30.34. In that case, if I'm using Varget or a powder with similar sized kernels, I simply add one kernel or take one kernel out of the powder pan because Varget kernels weight very very close to .02gr.
Once in a while it misses by .04gr and maybe once in a hundred charges it misses by more than that. If I can't correct the weight my adding or subtracting a maximum of two kernels, then I dump the pan and start again.
If I'm making non-competition ammo, which I rarely do, I'll take what the Autotrickler gives me unless it's really stupid for some unknown reason. I haven't tested this, but I imagine that kind of ammo would result in about half being within .02gr and the remaining 49% within .04 grains, and that last one of a hundred would make me dump that pan and start again.
In other words, you can get pretty darn accurate charge weights quickly and with little effort. I only correct my competition ammo to be right on the button because I can and because it's so easy. I suspect it's wasted time and effort, but confidence counts too, so I do it.
Bottom line: The FX-120/Autotrickler combination lets you make very precise charge loads rather quickly with minimum intervention. It lets you make hunting or plinking ammo even faster while enjoying a very high degree of precision when compared with other methods. The only thing faster is making AR-15 ammo for keeping kids off my lawn because I do that on a progressive press with a Hornaday mechanical powder dump.
dcali
Bullet Maker
We're on the same page. If I wasn't clear, my point is that the specific reloading *gear* is not the determining factor. The techniques, knowing what to do, and load development process are of course very important. It doens't matter if you use a beam scale or a cheap digital or an autotrickler/fx120i. You can get to the .3s with not much more than a stock reloading for beginners kit *if* your rifle is capable and you use high quality components (i.e. bullets and brass).
A great thread!
In my opinion a precise attitude (also assuming having good tools) to reloading should also transfer to precise shooting?
Reloading: I tend to focus on case length, neck tension and a 1 kernel consistency of powder.
Shooting: I need to learn how to read the wind.
BTW, what scores do guys achieve at F/tr? I managed a 95/6 at 300 yards last week.
Edit my F/TR is 2 sighters and 20 to count meaning a max of 100
In my opinion a precise attitude (also assuming having good tools) to reloading should also transfer to precise shooting?
Reloading: I tend to focus on case length, neck tension and a 1 kernel consistency of powder.
Shooting: I need to learn how to read the wind.
BTW, what scores do guys achieve at F/tr? I managed a 95/6 at 300 yards last week.
Edit my F/TR is 2 sighters and 20 to count meaning a max of 100
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My best in f open is; single match 192-6× agg. 568-8× only shot one 1k comp.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Custom dies are nice, I have one of John Whidden's dies for my 6SLR, but no where near necessary for an F-TR setup, and if you are getting one make sure you have your own reamer first.
Chamber:
Something to remember about loading for F class. Local weekend matches may be 60 to 120 rounds for record (plus sighters/foulers). Big events like the FCNC my round count was 486 rounds. (my actual count including the F class team tryouts was 536) I think I carried 580 for my main rifle and 150 for my backup. Your setup needs to be able to keep you sane when you have to go into that kind of volume. That's why things like primers with trays and the auto trickler are well worth the $$.
Edit: with regard to single kernel accuracy of the scale. My load for my 308 is 44.9 gr of N150. I will load 44.90 or 44.92 without any concerns. Using that tolerance I adjust about 10% of the powder throws. For comparison purposes My rifle(s) shot the highest X count at the Mid range FCNC last month. (109 on my targets and one on Jim Grissom’s).
Chamber:
Get your chambers setup with a 342 or 343 neck and forget about turning brass.
Dies:Redding or Forster FL bushing die for sizing.
Expander die with a .308 and an oversized mandrel (mine measures .3087)
Wilson seater die (do your self a favor and spring for the micrometer top. You will appreciate it)
Priming:Expander die with a .308 and an oversized mandrel (mine measures .3087)
Wilson seater die (do your self a favor and spring for the micrometer top. You will appreciate it)
I use an RCBS that doesn't require a shell plate. It works for me. The Frankfort arsenal looks pretty sweet too.
Weighing powder:Get the autotrickler with the Fx 120i. It's a cost but sweatmotherofallreloading doe it make life simpler.
Trimming:Giruard. I heard recently they have gone up in price since I got mine. Even more reason to hang onto mine.
Press:Pick any good one for sizing, I use a T7, there are lots of good ones.
Arbor press (I use a K&M) for seating, though I doubt that it is necessary, it is convenient and easy to carry with you if you like to push bullets back the night before a match.
Arbor press (I use a K&M) for seating, though I doubt that it is necessary, it is convenient and easy to carry with you if you like to push bullets back the night before a match.
Something to remember about loading for F class. Local weekend matches may be 60 to 120 rounds for record (plus sighters/foulers). Big events like the FCNC my round count was 486 rounds. (my actual count including the F class team tryouts was 536) I think I carried 580 for my main rifle and 150 for my backup. Your setup needs to be able to keep you sane when you have to go into that kind of volume. That's why things like primers with trays and the auto trickler are well worth the $$.
Edit: with regard to single kernel accuracy of the scale. My load for my 308 is 44.9 gr of N150. I will load 44.90 or 44.92 without any concerns. Using that tolerance I adjust about 10% of the powder throws. For comparison purposes My rifle(s) shot the highest X count at the Mid range FCNC last month. (109 on my targets and one on Jim Grissom’s).
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Jdne5b
Gold $$ Contributor
I currently use one. I'll be working this winter on transitioning to a bushing die, if for no other reason than to save me 1 pass through the press.
I have been very pleasantly surprised with mine in .223. I first purchased it after using both a RCBS Competition sizer and a Redding Competition. It was better for me than the RCBS and right up there with the Redding. I figured for the price of a few rounds of beer, it was a no brainer to try out.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
I used to use a Lee Collet die, and I got good results. I'm not sure if they were as good as the results I get now, and at the time I added it to my process it improved my loads. That is for certain.
The reason I put the LCD in a drawer was that it adds another step to the process. If you are running a LCD die you will have to do that in a separate step, as you note in the post above. A FL bushing die gets it in one step. A lot of guys accomplish something similar to the LCD by running sized brass over a mandrel as a last step. I recently started adding that final step to my process.
Thanks for all the replies - lots of great information. I think I've picked up some definite trends in the replies - Fx 120i, autotrickler, Giraud trimmer, Wilson seater die used with an arbor press. I don't currently have any of those items, but now I have a list of things I want to try. I already knew I wanted some of them - I recently had the chance to use a friend's Giraud trimmer and I can't imagine not having one of my own now!
I know that the exact reloading tools and equipment aren't necessarily the most important part of the game, but success in competitive shooting seems to be dependent on pursuing marginal gains in equipment and shooter skill. Every little bit helps.
I know that the exact reloading tools and equipment aren't necessarily the most important part of the game, but success in competitive shooting seems to be dependent on pursuing marginal gains in equipment and shooter skill. Every little bit helps.
As a long time friend and sniper instructor once said. “Buy all the points you can afford, then earn the rest. I hope this helps,
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
A world champion indian cant kill a deer with a shitty bow or arrows.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Neck sizing hasnt been popular at all since the 1950’s- especially inside of the competition circles. I think people read lee collet die then just stop and go buy one, then they come back here with brass or bolt closing issues. For many many years shooters have minimum fl sized their brass to not overwork it and still have the bolt close without beating on it or driving home from the range not having fired a shot due to their rounds not chambering at all.
After reading all posts I've got a question for you competitor's. Sorry if it's a lil off topic but ....
If using a .22 as a trainer can cause you to develop bad shooting habits due to lack of recoil.
Wouldn't it behoove you to practice with a rifle with more recoil than the rifle you use for score?
For example. After shooting my 06', then switch to the 260 or 6five it's like I dont even feel the recoil.
If using a .22 as a trainer can cause you to develop bad shooting habits due to lack of recoil.
Wouldn't it behoove you to practice with a rifle with more recoil than the rifle you use for score?
For example. After shooting my 06', then switch to the 260 or 6five it's like I dont even feel the recoil.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Train like you fight. You cant get ready to battle bruce lee by spending months sparring with a 5th grade karate class. A 22 cant train you to shoot any centerfire no matter how much you wish it would. Its an excuse to buy another rifle.
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