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F/TR Loading Setup - starting from scratch

I use the Sartorius Entris 64 and Dandy trickier as in the video you referenced and am ALWAYS faster than the autotrickler and more accurate. ALWAYS. I have done this test many times. This is why I never bought the autotrickler. I use a Chargemaster 1500 to measure out the initial charge to .1g under my final weight and transfer that charge to the Sartorius. I am ALWAYS within +/- 1 kernel.

I'm sure I'm not going to change your mind... but you trickle with a Chargemaster and then trickle with the Dandy. I find it very hard to believe that's faster than dumping a dipped precharge into the pan as the Autotrickler is going. The Autotrickler has finished before I have even returned the charging dipper to the powder pot for replenishment. (The Autothrower add-on can automate the pre-charging process.) Even if the need ever occurred, the fastest way to add/subtract a single kernel is with a set of tweezers.

The OP might be interested in the below post from bsumoba who did a side-by-side comparison of the accuracy of a Satorius and the considerably cheaper but eminently capable AD FX 120i. (There is, of course, no reason the Autotrickler can't be used with the more expensive scale.) In short, there is a point where the resolution of the media being measured is the limiting factor rather than the scale's ability to resolve. To be more accurate (ALWAYS just to add back the shouting) you've basically got to cut kernels or pick and choose big from small (to the extent that's even possible). So it is my view that even if one believes that a powder kernel or fractions thereof consistently resolve themselves on the target you're not really going to get a more accurate powder weight (and certainly not ALWAYS) unless you are prepared to deal in fractions of a powder kernel and that's about as anal retentive as I could possibly think of.

The OP can decide how far out on this limb he wants to go. Spend your money where you think it will provide effect. If money is no object then why not buy the more expensive scale and kid yourself you can revolve powder weights to 2 thou gr. The Autotrickler can still deliver +/- a kernel, and fast. A good starting point would be then to take 100 kernels of your favourite powder and measure them on the Sartorious, noting their average weight and SD. You can then come to a conclusion as to what the limiting factor is - a kernel or the scale - and buy a really fine scalpel.

I messed around with the FX 120i last night...My first impressions were that it was bigger than I had expected. Coming from a GemPro 250, I expected something slightly larger than this, but it was almost near the same size as the one I have in my company's stockroom, which is a Satorius and it is a $2K+ industrial/research model. I leveled the unit on my table, made sure there were no drafts even though there are shields provided with the unit, and I left the unit on for an hour, which is 1/2 hour longer than what the manual says to let it warm up.

I borrowed the stockroom Satorius (do not remember the model) that measures 0.002 gr (0.0001g) accuracy and is also calibrated every year. This is used for counting itty bitty parts which I borrowed from work to do this test.

I took all my weights that I have gotten over the years from various scales and measured them on the Satorius. Not to my surprise, all of them weighed in at exactly 20.0000 grams and 50.0000 grams. Who needs a Class-1 weight :p

I then took (2) of the 50 gram weights and used these to calibrate the FX120i. Finished that and then took a 20gr cal weight and put it on the FX120i. It measured at exactly 20.000 grams. Took an individual 50 gram weight and it measured exactly as well. That was refreshing! ;D

Just for good measure, I took the weights and put them on the Satorius, same thing.

Okay, now I switched to grains on both units, the Satorius and FX120i and used a chargemaster to measure out 56.8 grains of H4831SC. Put this on the Satorius and got 56.826 grains. I removed a kernel to get it to try to get it to exactly 56.800 grains. I could not get it to this number and ended up with 56.804 grains. I suspected if I searched for a "larger" kernel I could get it to exactly 56.800 grains.

Now, I put the 56.804 grain charge onto the FX120i and the unit measured exactly 56.80 grains.

Just to see how the unit would measure a charge, say 56.808 grains on the Satorius, I managed to remove a kernel, added a larger one and finally got it to 56.808 grains. I thought to myself, what a pain! If I was anal enough to want exactly 56.800 grains, that would take a lot of effort!

I took the 56.808 grain charge and put it on the FX120i and I got 56.80 grains. Okay, that is what I expected. I took off the charge, waited a few seconds, and put it back on the scale and it measure 56.80 grains. So it looks like it is stable.

I then changed the charge to 56.812 grains and put it on the FX and got 56.80 grains.

And lastly, I changed the weight to 56.818 grains and sure enough, it measured 56.82 grains.

Keep in mind, for me to get these weights on the Satorius, I had to remove what looked like slightly smaller kernels and add slightly larger ones. If someone is really doing this in real life, I can only imagine that it takes them FOREVER to get a precise 56.800 grain charge.

So what did I get out of this experiment....the preciseness of 0.02 grains is enough for me. There are just too many other variables that affect ES/SD in ammunition like brass, primer and bullet consistency, neck tension, etc. that to worry about kernel sizes to get a precise dead nuts reading of 56.800 grains on a $2K plus unit is probably overkill. The 0.02 grain was enough precision to get all my charges to within 1 kernel, maybe 2 small kernels max from each other.
 
I'm sure I'm not going to change your mind... but you trickle with a Chargemaster and then trickle with the Dandy. I find it very hard to believe that's faster than dumping a dipped precharge into the pan as the Autotrickler is going. The Autotrickler has finished before I have even returned the charging dipper to the powder pot for replenishment. (The Autothrower add-on can automate the pre-charging process.) Even if the need ever occurred, the fastest way to add/subtract a single kernel is with a set of tweezers.

The OP might be interested in the below post from bsumoba who did a side-by-side comparison of the accuracy of a Satorius and the considerably cheaper but eminently capable AD FX 120i. (There is, of course, no reason the Autotrickler can't be used with the more expensive scale.) In short, there is a point where the resolution of the media being measured is the limiting factor rather than the scale's ability to resolve. To be more accurate (ALWAYS just to add back the shouting) you've basically got to cut kernels or pick and choose big from small (to the extent that's even possible). So it is my view that even if one believes that a powder kernel or fractions thereof consistently resolve themselves on the target you're not really going to get a more accurate powder weight (and certainly not ALWAYS) unless you are prepared to deal in fractions of a powder kernel and that's about as anal retentive as I could possibly think of.

The OP can decide how far out on this limb he wants to go. Spend your money where you think it will provide effect. If money is no object then why not buy the more expensive scale and kid yourself you can revolve powder weights to 2 thou gr. The Autotrickler can still deliver +/- a kernel, and fast. A good starting point would be then to take 100 kernels of your favourite powder and measure them on the Sartorious, noting their average weight and SD. You can then come to a conclusion as to what the limiting factor is - a kernel or the scale - and buy a really fine scalpel.

Exactly. Then take a rifle setup that can at best shoot a 1/4” group and what do you have except lots of money down the drain? A good ppc rifle can shoot zeros with powder dispensed from a harrels without any kernel uniforming and no annealing. Sometimes we have to look at the bigger picture of whats important and not get caught up in the current trends or we wont even be able to enjoy shooting. By reading some of these posts some of these new guys wont even start shooting without $10k in equipment- they feel its futile.
 
I'm sure I'm not going to change your mind... but you trickle with a Chargemaster and then trickle with the Dandy. I find it very hard to believe that's faster than dumping a dipped precharge into the pan as the Autotrickler is going. The Autotrickler has finished before I have even returned the charging dipper to the powder pot for replenishment. (The Autothrower add-on can automate the pre-charging process.) Even if the need ever occurred, the fastest way to add/subtract a single kernel is with a set of tweezers.

Where the autotrickler loses out in the race is the time it takes for me to trickle <5 kernels with the Dandy trickler and the time it takes for the autotrickler to do the same.

I will also save time over the spoon preecharge method as using a Chargemaster can usually put me to within a few kernels under the target weight which will require me to actually trickle less than using a spoon which will not be as close to the target weight.

I looked at the autotrickler very closely when making a decision to upgrade my system from my Chargemaster. I looked at Adam's video very carefully and sat there with a stopwatch in hand and have timed myself many times.

Bottom line for me - Do I need the extra speed ? Not really. Do I need the extra sensitivity of an analytical balance - not really. Nobody on this forum can hand load ammo to an SD and ES that +/- one kernel would produce and nobody can shoot to a +/- one kernel. But if I were deciding between an autotrickler and a Dandy trickler for pure speed as well as cost the Dandy wins every time for me. :)
 
Exactly. Then take a rifle setup that can at best shoot a 1/4” group and what do you have except lots of money down the drain? A good ppc rifle can shoot zeros with powder dispensed from a harrels without any kernel uniforming and no annealing. Sometimes we have to look at the bigger picture of whats important and not get caught up in the current trends or we wont even be able to enjoy shooting. By reading some of these posts some of these new guys wont even start shooting without $10k in equipment- they feel its futile.

I just want to repeat this for emphasis. To any new shooters out there, you can clean a 600 yard F class target with ammo made from an RCBS reloading kit. Probably 1000 too, but that's not really my game. You absolutely do not need this fancy reloading stuff. What you need is knowledge (this forum is full of it), good bullets, good brass, and a good rifle. A good F class rifle does not need to cost $7,000, either. But it does need to built right.
 
Very well put @damoncali ,
If I might add that in my experience cleans at 600 are a whole lot easier than 1K. At a grand everything comes into play to a much higher % than 600.

Lloyd
 
@zipollini - I use the autotrickler with the throw mounted on the top of the Fx120i. It measures powder faster than I can seat bullets with my Wilson and a K&M arbor, usually I can do runs of 50 bullets in well under 30 minutes. I used to use a chargemaster and trickle up, and my speed was almost the same, but the level of attention that was needed was exponentially different. With the Auto Trickler you simply sit and fill cases.

There are two pieces of equipment that have most reduced my level of effort are my Guiraud trimmer and my Auto trickler. The idea of not having either is unthinkable for me today.

You can load just as well with out some of the things listed, but if you are starting from scratch and only want to buy once there are a lot of good ideas here.

(I've cleaned a lot of 600 yard targets, as of this writing, 1000 is still evading me)
 
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It is so nice to spend money on reloading equipment that we read about and think these pieces of kit will get us that extra % on the target.


I use an oldddd lee Powder dispenser that I bought with my very first “reloading Kit” many years ago (I actually have a coupe set up for different calibers) and a dillon eliminator beam scale that I tried to tune up with all the info I gathered on this website. Now that scale might not be the new wiz bang electronic scale (I tried a couple of the normal electronic auto throwers but didn’t care for them) but it’s very fast and dead on every time. The little Lee’s will generally throw a charge maybe 3 or 4 kernels low and now and then over but it takes a second to drop that in the pan with my little RCBS trickler or sometimes ill just pick up 2 or 3 kernels and drop them in. If im going I can drop a charge in a case in 45 seconds to a minute depending on what the Lee dropped so it takes me less than 2 hours to load 100 rounds (prime, charge and seat) which is generally more than I need for a weekend and I enjoy reloading so its not work.


That Auto trickler an FX combo is something that I see in my future and not because It will greatly improve my reloading/shooting just because it’s such a nice piece of equipment but unfortunately I can buy a pretty decent Rifle over here for less than what that setup will set me back.
 
IMG_0659.JPG I'm a cheap ass, the Lee scoop and bent straw can be just as accurate
 

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