First off, I have never claimed to have all the answers. Just trying to get a conversation started with those who are much wiser than me. I get things we’re getting wet but I also believe for a national championship they should have been prepared for that. Case and point, take the clubs assests oflit if the equation, Sure why not, having a set payout per match and for the grand agg is a bad idea? I think it’s kind of embarrassing that the NATIONAL CHAMPION won $50ish. None of us are in this sport for the money or the prizes, but when you go to a national level match, it’s nice to have a great prize table and the winners payout be more than a tank of gas. While the course of fire was set, there was discrepancies in this year and last year in regards to the team matches. Last year, the first match was unlimited sighters, this year was a blow off and 2 sighters.
Improvements for 2019 Fclass Nationals
- Thread starter Cody Richardson
- Start date
Steve PM me and I’d be happy to discuss how I can help out with things for next years prize table. I can try to help with something else if you need it but I’ve huddled plenty of door prizes in the past. I also want to publicly say that this post was not meant to slander the work you guys did to run this match, my apologies if it came across that way.
Warren Dean
Team Savage F-TR
Warren Dean
Team Savage F-TR
Matt, I think that is one of the things we can all agree is frustrating. The NRA received $15/per shooter/per day. I’m not going to try and butcher that math but I know it’s a hefty chunk of change. And what did the NRA do besides register the match, send a referee, and send 6 medals? Seems like the NRA is making out like a bandit on our expense.
Why would the NRA get $15 per head per day? From their standpoint, how is this match any different then any other registered match? It's been a couple years since I've been involved in running a registered match, but the fee used to be $5 per day per shooter? What extra are they providing for the extra $10?
I was not able to make either mid or long range nationals this year so all the rest of my comments are from hearsay so if I got the facts wrong I apologize in advance.
I have attended several state and regional shoots that charged about $40 per day, theses matches were $66 per day, what extra did the shooters get for the extra $26 except for the privledge of saying they shot in "The Nationals"?
There is no excuse for not having enough pit supplies. You know how many shooters are registered so you should be able to order targets and pasters from that number and estimate spotters and spindles. Just for easy numbers, let's say there are 100 shooters registered for mid range and 100 for long range, you should have 200 - 300 yard centers, 200 - 500 centers, 500 - 600 yard centers, 900 - 1,000 yard centers and 36,000 pasters, minimum. They don't go out of date that quickly and we should assume that a match hosting the nationals does host other F-Class matches throughout the year so if they have extras, it's not the end of the world. There is no excuse for someone that ties or breaks a national record not being allowed to keep their target.
I don't see a problem with a national committee to set some standards for what is expected of a 'National Championship" match. They could advise the host club of things like supplies to have on hand and, yes, even prizes. While I am OK with the host club making more for hosting "The Nationals", maybe the extra $26 mentioned above could be split between the club and the prize table. I for one am of the opinion that if I pay more for entry, I should expect more if I win, especially if I beat a larger field of competitors.
This is not the host clubs match or the NRA's match, it's our, the shooters, match and we should have some say in what we expect it to be.
I was not able to make either mid or long range nationals this year so all the rest of my comments are from hearsay so if I got the facts wrong I apologize in advance.
I have attended several state and regional shoots that charged about $40 per day, theses matches were $66 per day, what extra did the shooters get for the extra $26 except for the privledge of saying they shot in "The Nationals"?
There is no excuse for not having enough pit supplies. You know how many shooters are registered so you should be able to order targets and pasters from that number and estimate spotters and spindles. Just for easy numbers, let's say there are 100 shooters registered for mid range and 100 for long range, you should have 200 - 300 yard centers, 200 - 500 centers, 500 - 600 yard centers, 900 - 1,000 yard centers and 36,000 pasters, minimum. They don't go out of date that quickly and we should assume that a match hosting the nationals does host other F-Class matches throughout the year so if they have extras, it's not the end of the world. There is no excuse for someone that ties or breaks a national record not being allowed to keep their target.
I don't see a problem with a national committee to set some standards for what is expected of a 'National Championship" match. They could advise the host club of things like supplies to have on hand and, yes, even prizes. While I am OK with the host club making more for hosting "The Nationals", maybe the extra $26 mentioned above could be split between the club and the prize table. I for one am of the opinion that if I pay more for entry, I should expect more if I win, especially if I beat a larger field of competitors.
This is not the host clubs match or the NRA's match, it's our, the shooters, match and we should have some say in what we expect it to be.
I seriously doubt that the winners of the Open and F-TR championships are either embarrassed or insulted by the their cash awards. I'll bet they could care less if the prize money was $50.00 or $300.00. High power, and that's what F class is, is not professional golf or tennis, if your concerned about prize money at any level of competition, your in the wrong sport. The same goes for prize tables, are they the driving concern for competing on a national level?
It's not the higher payouts that attract new shooters to the "action/practical" disciplines, and away from high power, F class or bullseye.
From what I gathered from reading this entire thread, the following are deemed necessary for improving the next F-Class National Championships:
Practice time before the matches
More Targets
More and better prizes
More and better medals
Staple removers
Different spotters
Paid pullers
Recognition for every junior and the U25 team
Higher payouts
More pit supplies
More NRA support and money
Higher entry fees
Result reporting for non competitors
I may have missed something, but I think that covers most of it.
My disclaimer; I'm not an F-class shooter but have been shooting High power, mid range and long range prone for 25 years, and competed in National, State and Regional championships over that time. I can honestly say that none of the items listed above would influence my participation in any match be it National, State or even local or club.
I expect a safe, fair and well run match and it sounds like that was the case in Raton.
Congratulations to the winners and a shout out to the Bald Eagles, many of the volunteers for the Nationals are involved in helping run many of the State and Regional matches I attend in the Peoples Republic of California and other places.
An opinion from a sling puke looking from the outside, but hey it's all high power right?
Marc Mittry
It's not the higher payouts that attract new shooters to the "action/practical" disciplines, and away from high power, F class or bullseye.
From what I gathered from reading this entire thread, the following are deemed necessary for improving the next F-Class National Championships:
Practice time before the matches
More Targets
More and better prizes
More and better medals
Staple removers
Different spotters
Paid pullers
Recognition for every junior and the U25 team
Higher payouts
More pit supplies
More NRA support and money
Higher entry fees
Result reporting for non competitors
I may have missed something, but I think that covers most of it.
My disclaimer; I'm not an F-class shooter but have been shooting High power, mid range and long range prone for 25 years, and competed in National, State and Regional championships over that time. I can honestly say that none of the items listed above would influence my participation in any match be it National, State or even local or club.
I expect a safe, fair and well run match and it sounds like that was the case in Raton.
Congratulations to the winners and a shout out to the Bald Eagles, many of the volunteers for the Nationals are involved in helping run many of the State and Regional matches I attend in the Peoples Republic of California and other places.
An opinion from a sling puke looking from the outside, but hey it's all high power right?
Marc Mittry
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The NRA can’t keep up with updating National records and you want them to do what?
The match was well ran and moved right along as it should. The rain issue, well it happened so we moved on. No different than the decision to cancel the last day at Bergers due to the wind. Both could have been shot later in the day, no one could predict that, but the decision needed to be made. All is good in OZ!
The match was well ran and moved right along as it should. The rain issue, well it happened so we moved on. No different than the decision to cancel the last day at Bergers due to the wind. Both could have been shot later in the day, no one could predict that, but the decision needed to be made. All is good in OZ!
The NRA Whittington Center got $15 dollars per shooter per day. The NRA got the $3 (not sure if that is correct) to register the match. The NRA and the NRA Whittington Center are two different things. The NRA doesn't own the Whittington center
My hats off to the Bald Eagles. They ran a smooth and great match. Every person that helped run that match had to travel to the Whittington Center because none of them live in the area. Something that all other clubs don't have to deal with. They made the best decisions at the time with the information they had at the time. I can't name all of the people that put on the match, but they know who they are and I would like to say THANK YOU. Without people willing to be selfless and put their own lives and shooting on the back burner so that shooters can participate in the sport that they love, none of this would of taken place.
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Just curious - who does own the Whittington center?
The NRA Whittington Center is a 501(c)3 Nonprofit Organization that is overseen by a Board of Directors. Not the NRA. All fees collected by the range goes back into the facility and the NRA doesn't have a say.
So if I counted right there were about 160 mid range shooters and 230 long range shooters. If the $15 per day to the Whittington Center is correct, that's $7,200 and $10,350, respectively. Is this just a trespass fee to get on the range and then Bald Eagle is responsible for targets, pasters, spotters, etc. or is this intended to cover those expenses?
I am the match director/highpower secretary for our local club. We charge $20 per shooter for our monthly matches. $15 goes to the club to cover targets, NRA fees, insurance, land lease, etc. The other $5 goes to prizes. Assuming the $15 Whittington Center fee is just for access and Bald Eagle takes another $15 for range expenses (if we can host matches for that, I don't see why they couldn't), where is the other $36 per day per shooter going? That's $17,280 for mid range and $24,840 for long range that could have gone towards match shirts, hats, prizes, etc. I'm sure I'm missing something, but it sure seems like a lot of the entry fees just disappears into a black hole.
I am the match director/highpower secretary for our local club. We charge $20 per shooter for our monthly matches. $15 goes to the club to cover targets, NRA fees, insurance, land lease, etc. The other $5 goes to prizes. Assuming the $15 Whittington Center fee is just for access and Bald Eagle takes another $15 for range expenses (if we can host matches for that, I don't see why they couldn't), where is the other $36 per day per shooter going? That's $17,280 for mid range and $24,840 for long range that could have gone towards match shirts, hats, prizes, etc. I'm sure I'm missing something, but it sure seems like a lot of the entry fees just disappears into a black hole.
Shiraz
Site $$ Sponsor
Okay, having read this thread a couple of times I feel that some things need to be discussed clearly from a practical standpoint.
First and foremost - the match was run by the Bald Eagles Rifle Club which consists of older shooters that have given up parts of their lives to the shooting community so that others can enjoy the sport. Used to be that you had to be at least 55 years just to join BERC. I don't know if that is still true. However, Jim, Steve and other "old foggies" are actually heroes for donating all the time they did not only for this match, but dozens of matches over the years. This match was very well run given all the limitations they were up against.
Some shooters want things run perfectly without doing any of the work. For others, we are sometimes looking to improve on situations, specially at a National Championship level. So, with that in mind here are some suggestions from me, to be taken with a healthy dose of salt as I am merely suggesting and not demanding, nor asking for things to be changed.
1) Increase the entry fees
2) Do NOT give out cash for prizes. Cash stays only temporarily in your pocket. We spend far more on components than to worry about fifty bucks or so.
3) Spend some of that money on quality medals. The medals we got this year are grossly inferior to the medals we used to receive in the past. I understand that the company that made them went out of business, but it took me two minutes on Google to find an alternate source that will make those medals as good, or better than the ones we used to get in the past.
4) Use some of the funds from the extra fees, and no cash awards, to actually pay people to build extra targets. In fact, you could just have specs. made up and find a woodworker who will build them remotely and ship them in one shot to the range.
5) Do a fund raiser to pay for an extra shed in the pitts to hold the extra target frames.
6) Then ask for volunteers to do some of the things. Put a person in charge of managing the volunteers. Shooters could also be volunteers and they could be offered a subsidized entry fee. I think you could get a good group of volunteers if you just offered them reserved front row parking! Then hold the volunteers accountable and run it like a project or a business. For the BERC guys, you may have to give up some control, but at the same time lay out the parameters in advance so you don't have duplication of effort, unauthorized stuff happening and people tripping all over themselves.
7) Part of the volunteer crew could be a young person who could run the computers and post things where they need to be posted quickly.
And, let's not forget to thank the lady volunteers like Karin and Beverly that gave so much of their time to help behind the scenes. I apologize if I missed some people.
First and foremost - the match was run by the Bald Eagles Rifle Club which consists of older shooters that have given up parts of their lives to the shooting community so that others can enjoy the sport. Used to be that you had to be at least 55 years just to join BERC. I don't know if that is still true. However, Jim, Steve and other "old foggies" are actually heroes for donating all the time they did not only for this match, but dozens of matches over the years. This match was very well run given all the limitations they were up against.
Some shooters want things run perfectly without doing any of the work. For others, we are sometimes looking to improve on situations, specially at a National Championship level. So, with that in mind here are some suggestions from me, to be taken with a healthy dose of salt as I am merely suggesting and not demanding, nor asking for things to be changed.
1) Increase the entry fees
2) Do NOT give out cash for prizes. Cash stays only temporarily in your pocket. We spend far more on components than to worry about fifty bucks or so.
3) Spend some of that money on quality medals. The medals we got this year are grossly inferior to the medals we used to receive in the past. I understand that the company that made them went out of business, but it took me two minutes on Google to find an alternate source that will make those medals as good, or better than the ones we used to get in the past.
4) Use some of the funds from the extra fees, and no cash awards, to actually pay people to build extra targets. In fact, you could just have specs. made up and find a woodworker who will build them remotely and ship them in one shot to the range.
5) Do a fund raiser to pay for an extra shed in the pitts to hold the extra target frames.
6) Then ask for volunteers to do some of the things. Put a person in charge of managing the volunteers. Shooters could also be volunteers and they could be offered a subsidized entry fee. I think you could get a good group of volunteers if you just offered them reserved front row parking! Then hold the volunteers accountable and run it like a project or a business. For the BERC guys, you may have to give up some control, but at the same time lay out the parameters in advance so you don't have duplication of effort, unauthorized stuff happening and people tripping all over themselves.
7) Part of the volunteer crew could be a young person who could run the computers and post things where they need to be posted quickly.
And, let's not forget to thank the lady volunteers like Karin and Beverly that gave so much of their time to help behind the scenes. I apologize if I missed some people.
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Very nice Matt!
Monte
On the committee: Walt Walter, Chairman, Tom King VC, Allan Cors, Denise Loring, Tom Layou, Jonathon Storment, Ray Gross, Jim Maurer & Kyle Ward. And here is the agenda as of today.
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