How does anyone ever achieve the perfect load?

[Homerange]

Sorry but I do not believe that for a minute. I've watched very talented shooters try for the last fifteen years with a lot of Tikkas, Savage LRPV, Coopers, etc. and have never seen anyone who could do it consistently. Once in a long while maybe but that, in my humble opinion, was luck.

Seeing is believing !
A mate that re-barreled a T3 Varmint 22-250 to 6mm Rem that would better suit his long range requirements shoots into 1 1/4" @ 500 yds and at velocities that you don't see in print !
His bro and bro inlaw shot 223 T3 Varminters into 2" with 69gr Bergers.

I know of others that have bought the T3 Sporter in .260 Rem and in very short order gone on to win 800yd matches.
It can be done, Tikka tubes are good tubes !
Of all the rifles I've seen shot in from new, Tikka tubes consistently copper foul the least such is their quality of tube finish. That does lead to the risk of overlooking copper fouling further down the track and risk of the tube drifting 'off song'.

 

[clunker]

Mathematically it's equivalent but then things like wind and mirage really screw things up. The difference in degree of difficulty when going from 100 yards to 400 yards is not four, it's sixteen. It's proportional to the square of the difference. Trust me, you will find out that mother nature is a bitch....

Yep! Not going to argue with that. But the degree of difficulty rests squarely on the shoulders of the shooter, not the rifle. There's no way I will ever achieve the prowess of marksmen like Morton and Glover, but if THEY can shoot my rifle with good handloads and reach my goals, then I have the right tool for the job. Then it's up to me to get better at shooting. There are many members on this forum who have stressed that you cannot get better at shooting if your rifle sucks. And even more members who have stressed that someone hoping to tighten groups with factory ammo is wasting his time. I think that is good advice. Let's see what the Creedmoor can do at 100 yds with load testing, then I'll see if my skill is up to the task.

 

[JFrank]

My 15 year old Grandson shot a 5 in 10 shot group at 600 yards first time out.
Tikka sporter
Fixed 10x scope
308 cal 22in barrel 11/Twist
Fed 175 GMM
Cheap rest
He took his time scored 87 points in hunter class, even won a plaque.
With handloads it might shoot 4inch.
Jim

 

[REELDOC]

Hate to add this but....... when shooting for groups and that damn flier goes out. "Was that the load? Or did I pull the shot? Or did I miss a condition change? Or was I on the rifle differently? Primer inconsistency? Bullet inconsistency? Lunar cycle? Paris Hilton??".

What if your flier was the good shot and your other shots were the fliers? I've messed several minds up with that simple question..................

 

[msinc]

my problem is trying to get me 45 70 to shoot as good as me 22 250

Drink enough Bushmill's me boy and that problem goes away!!!!!!

 

[Dusty Stevens]

What if your flier was the good shot and your other shots were the fliers? I've messed several minds up with that simple question..................

Makes no difference if theres holes far enough apart to be called flyers

 

[K22]

Perfection is the enemy of perfectly adequate - Saul Goodman

 

[Ned Ludd]

5 shots into 2" at 500 yd is certainly not impossible and won't necessarily require an expensive custom rifle, either. Having said that, you will be hard pressed to to ever achieve that goal with a .223 Rem using lightweight bullets (50-60 gr), if there's much wind where you typically shoot. You should have a much better chance of loading to that performance level with the 6.5.

If you ever want to markedly improve the performance of the .223 at distances longer than 200-300 yd, you'll need a fast twist barrel (7.0-twist is just about ideal), a chamber with longer freebore, and load bullets in the 80-90 gr range. It may not be ideal (or even possible) with your current barrel/chamber, but for future reference don't discount the notion of shooting heavy bullets in the .223; they can be made to shoot extremely well.

 

[clunker]

5 shots into 2" at 500 yd is certainly not impossible and won't necessarily require an expensive custom rifle, either. Having said that, you will be hard pressed to to ever achieve that goal with a .223 Rem using lightweight bullets (50-60 gr), if there's much wind where you typically shoot. You should have a much better chance of loading to that performance level with the 6.5.

If you ever want to markedly improve the performance of the .223 at distances longer than 200-300 yd, you'll need a fast twist barrel (7.0-twist is just about ideal), a chamber with longer freebore, and load bullets in the 80-90 gr range. It may not be ideal (or even possible) with your current barrel/chamber, but for future reference don't discount the notion of shooting heavy bullets in the .223; they can be made to shoot extremely well.

Yes! As mentioned earlier, I do not intend to shoot the .223 at distances longer than 300 yds, especially since it only has a 1/10" twist. That rifle was able to stabilize some 69gr Sierra Matchkings, but I wouldn't bet on anything larger. However, the Creedmoor should perform quite well in the wind with 130-140gr bullets. I probably confused some people by talking about two different rifles at the same time. Just to clarify, the end goal is to shoot tight groups at 500 yds with the Creedmoor, not the .223.

 

[Steve Ladino]

I wonder this a lot. It seems like I do not shoot to shoot, it's all load development and learning. I don't think there is an end. Biggest thing I learned in my first year is to keep it simple. Don't start out 15 different bullets and use 15 different powders per bullet. Do 1 bullet at a time methodically. That's almost as hard as learning to shoot good really.

You will know when you find it.....the one that gives you complete confidence shot to shot.

 

[balloonpilot9513]

I am fairly new to reloading as well.
I have a factory tikka t3 in 223. that I developed a few loads for.
In the beginning, I was thinking the same thing as you. There are so many variables with components that I will never find a good load without just dumb luck.
I did a lot of research on this site and came up with what bullet, powder, brass and primer I wanted to use. There is a thread on here by Eric Cortina on 100 yd load development that I followed and it has worked very well for me. Eric is a very established national shooter and said that there has not been a combination that he has not been able to get to shoot with this method. I have not tried many combinations, but the few that I have tried have worked out for me.

I do not hunt, but am obsessed with shooting as small as I possibly can. I am currently shooting 77gr SMK's with Varget, br-4 primers and Lapua brass. I put a penny taped to the backer and hit 3 out of 4 shots at 100 m with the load I developed. I decided to try my hand at 600yd benchrest and have a couple groups at under 2.25" at 600yds with this set up in my factory tikka (I have only shot the competition twice).

Don't just load to what others are doing well with, I tried that and had no luck with it. Every gun/barrel is different, even of the same manufacture. You can use it for ideas in what you might settle on, but do your own load development.

My 2 cents, do some research on this site. Decide what is working well for others in the way of components and from that list decide what will work for what you want to do with it, weather that is hunting, target or competition. Follow the process for 100 yd load development and don't stress over it. Besides, the more you are shooting, the better you should be getting at it and the more fun you should be having!

Good luck and have fun!

 

[clunker]

I am fairly new to reloading as well.
I have a factory tikka t3 in 223. that I developed a few loads for.
In the beginning, I was thinking the same thing as you. There are so many variables with components that I will never find a good load without just dumb luck.
I did a lot of research on this site and came up with what bullet, powder, brass and primer I wanted to use. There is a thread on here by Eric Cortina on 100 yd load development that I followed and it has worked very well for me. Eric is a very established national shooter and said that there has not been a combination that he has not been able to get to shoot with this method. I have not tried many combinations, but the few that I have tried have worked out for me.

I do not hunt, but am obsessed with shooting as small as I possibly can. I am currently shooting 77gr SMK's with Varget, br-4 primers and Lapua brass. I put a penny taped to the backer and hit 3 out of 4 shots at 100 m with the load I developed. I decided to try my hand at 600yd benchrest and have a couple groups at under 2.25" at 600yds with this set up in my factory tikka (I have only shot the competition twice).

Don't just load to what others are doing well with, I tried that and had no luck with it. Every gun/barrel is different, even of the same manufacture. You can use it for ideas in what you might settle on, but do your own load development.

My 2 cents, do some research on this site. Decide what is working well for others in the way of components and from that list decide what will work for what you want to do with it, weather that is hunting, target or competition. Follow the process for 100 yd load development and don't stress over it. Besides, the more you are shooting, the better you should be getting at it and the more fun you should be having!

Good luck and have fun!

Thanks for the encouragement. You have the exact same rifle except that your barrel must have a 1/8" twist. I'd seriously doubt that my 1/10" twist would stabilize a 77gr bullet. What you have achieved with your loads is exactly what I'm going for, but I will probably end up with 60gr bullets at 300 yds because that's what the rifle likes. Thanks for the tip on Eric Cortina's load development method. If I have as good of luck as you with my .223, I will definitely use it for developing the Creedmoor load.

 

[seymour fish]

Sorry but I do not believe that for a minute. I've watched very talented shooters try for the last fifteen years with a lot of Tikkas, Savage LRPV, Coopers, etc. and have never seen anyone who could do it consistently. Once in a long while maybe but that, in my humble opinion, was luck.

Dave, if you don’t believe Homerange, you certainly won’t believe a chrome lined TRW bbl m-14 will do 2-21/2” with boring regularity at 550 in a steady condition.

 

[seymour fish]

Great replies everyone. I guess I should have specified my intent for the rifle and what I have experienced so far. The .223 is my first rifle. At 46, you would think that I would have started this hobby long ago, but it never seemed like the right time to actually purchase a rifle. Now I am addicted. I have fired at least 250 rounds of various factory ammo through the barrel and have a pretty good idea of what it likes (Nosler bullets, 50 to 62gr, and a max of 3 shots before letting the barrel cool). With good factory ammo, I am now getting approximately MOA if I don't take the 4th shot, and I don't think that number will ever get better until I start reloading. Those numbers are from shooting off a bipod on the ground in prone position. I haven't tried front and rear bags off the bench yet.

The .223 will be my target/varmint rifle. Basically, something to shoot at the range while waiting for another barrel to cool. Plus, something to dispose of garden pests. My bullet choice is based on these two factors, and I don't want two different loads, just one that does both jobs. For that reason, I am leaning toward Nosler ballistic tip BT in 55 or 60gr (accurate and deadly to critters), but that's assuming that my rifle even likes that bullet choice. My research tells me that .223 likes fast burning powders. H335 seems to be the standard, but CFE223 has been rumored to reduce copper fouling, and it turns out that Nosler ballistic tips are known for heavy copper fouling (probably because they have an enormously thick copper base). These preliminary choices make a ton of assumptions, and I don't pretend to think that I have magically pieced together the perfect round without even starting to reload. That's why I started the thread, and you guys are awesome.

My Tikka T3x Superlight in 6.5CM, which is still waiting for parts at Beretta's warranty service center, will be used exclusively for hunting. It is nearly weightless (in case I have to track a wounded whitetail), but I prefer to drop it where it stands. As I'm writing this post, UPS just delivered my 32x scope. I want to be able to consistently shoot under 2" MOA at 500 yards, and that will require load development. My bullet of choice is the 140gr Nosler Accubond, but once again, I don't have a clue if the rifle even likes that bullet. The Creedmoor will sit alone in its case for most of the year until hunting season. I just want to dial in the "perfect" load and take a few practice shots each year. Then I'm ready to put some meat in the chest freezer. Don't even get me started on discovering the 6BR. I already told you, I'm an addict.

Rear bag with that bipod ? Any experience with any sort of rifle prior to the present ? Quickload would be a good fit for your addiction. Some suggest lots of dry firing

 

[BenPerfected]

There is no perfect load......At some point you just have to shoot the damn thing...( note to self )

My thought is a perfect load is only good for 3-5 hrs.
Ben

 

[daniel brothers]

most people blame the rifle... barrel... or other components, when the truth is... that they can't reload very well. Putting the correct powder/bullet combo together is a test of logical reloading skills... if you don't master that skill, then what makes you think you can master a rifle that has no properly tuned barrel harmonics skill level in it. The barrel whips... and it's that whipping that must be tamed by proper reloading combos in order to create a forgiving accurate rifle.

A lot of people also don't shoot a high enough quality scope to even allow for tight groups. Everyone wants to blame it on the brand rifle or barrel, when they need to blame it on their reloading skills... once you learn those skills, then you can make most any rifle shoot to it's very best potential.

I bought a savage 12 fv 6.5 creedmoor from cabelas that finally consistently gives me clover leaf groups at 100 yds after the correct combo was applied.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.... work you loads with a plan of purpose....NOT A HAP HAZARD STAB IN THE DARK.

 

[clunker]

most people blame the rifle... barrel... or other components, when the truth is... that they can't reload very well. Putting the correct powder/bullet combo together is a test of logical reloading skills... if you don't master that skill, then what makes you think you can master a rifle that has no properly tuned barrel harmonics skill level in it. The barrel whips... and it's that whipping that must be tamed by proper reloading combos in order to create a forgiving accurate rifle.

A lot of people also don't shoot a high enough quality scope to even allow for tight groups. Everyone wants to blame it on the brand rifle or barrel, when they need to blame it on their reloading skills... once you learn those skills, then you can make most any rifle shoot to it's very best potential.

I bought a savage 12 fv 6.5 creedmoor from cabelas that finally consistently gives me clover leaf groups at 100 yds after the correct combo was applied.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.... work you loads with a plan of purpose....NOT A HAP HAZARD STAB IN THE DARK.

Exactly why I want to start reloading. I have shot some very tight groups with factory, but never consistently. Part of that is on me, and part of it is on the one-size-fits-all ammo. I have been researching powders for the .223, and I keep hearing similar reviews about Varget. The people who claim that it does not meter well with their system are the same people who claim that it is not as accurate as their favorite powder. Sounds to me like there is more of an issue with their reloading skill than there is with the powder. Those who love it, REALLY LOVE IT.

 

[SSL]

Best advice I can give you is that once you find the load that works to your satisfaction, STOP! Now concentrate on shooting technique and trigger control. Results will probably improve as you refine both. As accuracy begins to degrade (and it will) you can make subtle changes from a known base-line.
Don't get locked in to recommended loads, powders or bullets other than as places to start. Even with the wealth of knowledgeable and experienced counsel on this site, consider it as guidance, not gospel. Three of my rifles are locked on "perfect" (for them) loads that use powders and bullets seldom mentioned here...and would probably not shoot well in other rifles. In time, I will have to start the quest again as barrels wear and etc. Every poster is trying to be helpful and considerate, but final results depend on you.
Best of luck and stay safe.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Exactly why I want to start reloading. I have shot some very tight groups with factory, but never consistently. Part of that is on me, and part of it is on the one-size-fits-all ammo. I have been researching powders for the .223, and I keep hearing similar reviews about Varget. The people who claim that it does not meter well with their system are the same people who claim that it is not as accurate as their favorite powder. Sounds to me like there is more of an issue with their reloading skill than there is with the powder. Those who love it, REALLY LOVE IT.

I shoot a ton of 223 thru a match service rifle and used to use varget with great success. I switched to rl15 and when i think it couldnt get any better i tried n135. Its the holy grail. Ive used 8208xbr, 2015br, h322, etc- ive tried em all. Varget is #3 on my list. It shoots great groups but dont hold up over time in a semi heavy bullet 223.

 

[grovey]

I shoot a ton of 223 thru a match service rifle and used to use varget with great success. I switched to rl15 and when i think it couldnt get any better i tried n135. Its the holy grail. Ive used 8208xbr, 2015br, h322, etc- ive tried em all. Varget is #3 on my list. It shoots great groups but dont hold up over time in a semi heavy bullet 223.

What do you mean when you say it doesn't hold up over time Dusty? Is N135 temp sensitive?