How does anyone ever achieve the perfect load?

[grovey]

I met a perfect load early this summer. We went at it hot and heavy for two or three months, and then one morning she was gone. I changed a few things, and while we're back together... it doesn't feel the same. The trust isn't there anymore.

 

[ClassCat]

I was testing bullets that i made, 62 and 66 grain with my 10 1/2 LB LV, 5 Shot groups @ 100 Yds. Wind was 5-12 and changing. That was a load that is in my archives that is 1 of about 15 that i have based on ambient conditions. The few targets with bullets out is me misreading condition. There is no PERFECT LOAD, Only a PERFECT SHOOTER You can see in target A-2 and D-2 the angle and velocity change in the wind

 

[clunker]

You mixed units of measure there clunker so I'm not sure what your expectations are.

2 MOA at 500 yards shouldn't be too hard. That's roughly 10" and a reasonable objective for a good factory rifle with some time and work invested.

2" at 500 yards for a factory rifle will not be easy. That's 0.4 MOA which will take some effort to do consistently even at 100 yards. You'll need more than just the perfect load to do that at 500.

Sorry for the error in specifications. I want to shoot within 2" at 500 yds (0.4 MOA at the range). It's true that many factory rifles will probably not achieve this level of accuracy, even with very good hand-loaded ammo, but that is my goal. If the rifle can't meet those expectations, then I guess I'll start investigating custom barrels. However, if I can shoot MOA with a factory rifle with factory ammo with a bipod, then a more experienced shooter should easily be able to use custom ammo and achieve less than 0.5" MOA with the same rifle. I'm sure that my skills need to improve, but better skill is worthless if the ammo is less accurate than me. I should clarify that I do not expect the .223 to shoot that accurately (It will probably never exceed 300 yds for my purposes). I expect the Creedmoor to do it.

 

[Homerange]

Sorry for the error in specifications. I want to shoot within 2" at 500 yds (0.4 MOA at the range). It's true that many factory rifles will probably not achieve this level of accuracy, even with very good hand-loaded ammo, but that is my goal. If the rifle can't meet those expectations, then I guess I'll start investigating custom barrels. However, if I can shoot MOA with a factory rifle with factory ammo with a bipod, then a more experienced shooter should easily be able to use custom ammo and achieve less than 0.5" MOA with the same rifle. I'm sure that my skills need to improve, but better skill is worthless if the ammo is less accurate than me. I should clarify that I do not expect the .223 to shoot that accurately (It will probably never exceed 300 yds for my purposes). I expect the Creedmoor to do it.

Your Tikka will shoot nearly as well as the best custom tubes and from the Beretta family like Sako they make good tubes but 2" @ 500yds with a lightweight barrel ?
Don't set you expectations too high.
Good luck, you'll need it.

 

[cptjack]

my problem is trying to get me 45 70 to shoot as good as me 22 250

 

[Richard Coody]

my problem is trying to get me 45 70 to shoot as good as me 22 250

i bet after touching off about 3 of those 45/70's groups start to open up.

 

[dcali]

Great replies everyone. I guess I should have specified my intent for the rifle and what I have experienced so far. The .223 is my first rifle. At 46, you would think that I would have started this hobby long ago, but it never seemed like the right time to actually purchase a rifle. Now I am addicted. I have fired at least 250 rounds of various factory ammo through the barrel and have a pretty good idea of what it likes (Nosler bullets, 50 to 62gr, and a max of 3 shots before letting the barrel cool). With good factory ammo, I am now getting approximately MOA if I don't take the 4th shot, and I don't think that number will ever get better until I start reloading. Those numbers are from shooting off a bipod on the ground in prone position. I haven't tried front and rear bags off the bench yet.

The .223 will be my target/varmint rifle. Basically, something to shoot at the range while waiting for another barrel to cool. Plus, something to dispose of garden pests. My bullet choice is based on these two factors, and I don't want two different loads, just one that does both jobs. For that reason, I am leaning toward Nosler ballistic tip BT in 55 or 60gr (accurate and deadly to critters), but that's assuming that my rifle even likes that bullet choice. My research tells me that .223 likes fast burning powders. H335 seems to be the standard, but CFE223 has been rumored to reduce copper fouling, and it turns out that Nosler ballistic tips are known for heavy copper fouling (probably because they have an enormously thick copper base). These preliminary choices make a ton of assumptions, and I don't pretend to think that I have magically pieced together the perfect round without even starting to reload. That's why I started the thread, and you guys are awesome.

My Tikka T3x Superlight in 6.5CM, which is still waiting for parts at Beretta's warranty service center, will be used exclusively for hunting. It is nearly weightless (in case I have to track a wounded whitetail), but I prefer to drop it where it stands. As I'm writing this post, UPS just delivered my 32x scope. I want to be able to consistently shoot under 2" MOA at 500 yards, and that will require load development. My bullet of choice is the 140gr Nosler Accubond, but once again, I don't have a clue if the rifle even likes that bullet. The Creedmoor will sit alone in its case for most of the year until hunting season. I just want to dial in the "perfect" load and take a few practice shots each year. Then I'm ready to put some meat in the chest freezer. Don't even get me started on discovering the 6BR. I already told you, I'm an addict.

I’m sorry to be the one to have to tell you this, but we are about spend a metric ton of your money. It’s not personal. Welcome.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Any or all of the above!!

 

[Dave Berg]

Sorry for the error in specifications. I want to shoot within 2" at 500 yds (0.4 MOA at the range). It's true that many factory rifles will probably not achieve this level of accuracy, even with very good hand-loaded ammo, but that is my goal. If the rifle can't meet those expectations, then I guess I'll start investigating custom barrels. However, if I can shoot MOA with a factory rifle with factory ammo with a bipod, then a more experienced shooter should easily be able to use custom ammo and achieve less than 0.5" MOA with the same rifle. I'm sure that my skills need to improve, but better skill is worthless if the ammo is less accurate than me. I should clarify that I do not expect the .223 to shoot that accurately (It will probably never exceed 300 yds for my purposes). I expect the Creedmoor to do it.

You're going to be very disappointed but good luck anyway....

 

[dcali]

Sorry for the error in specifications. I want to shoot within 2" at 500 yds (0.4 MOA at the range). It's true that many factory rifles will probably not achieve this level of accuracy, even with very good hand-loaded ammo, but that is my goal. If the rifle can't meet those expectations, then I guess I'll start investigating custom barrels. However, if I can shoot MOA with a factory rifle with factory ammo with a bipod, then a more experienced shooter should easily be able to use custom ammo and achieve less than 0.5" MOA with the same rifle. I'm sure that my skills need to improve, but better skill is worthless if the ammo is less accurate than me. I should clarify that I do not expect the .223 to shoot that accurately (It will probably never exceed 300 yds for my purposes). I expect the Creedmoor to do it.

Many factory rifles will never see a group under 1 MOA. It's just the way it works. Some can, but I wouldn't count on it. The reason people buy customs is because when properly built, they will absolutely be capable of a consistent 1/2 MOA. Shoot your factory rifles, but don't be surprised if you can't get the accuracy you want. You will find very quickly that it's not you. It's the rifle. Don't fall into the trap of blaming the yourself because you don't want to be the guy who blames his equipment for his personal failures.

 

[grovey]

If your a decent handloader that Tikka 6.5cm should shoot 1/2 moa or better fairly easily.

 

[Dave Berg]

If your a decent handloader that Tikka 6.5cm should shoot 1/2 moa or better fairly easily.

There's an enormous difference between 1/2 MOA at 100 yards and 1/2 MOA at 500 yards. A 2" group with a factory rifle at 500 yards is pure luck and no one is consistently that lucky.

If you doubt this check out the group sizes at 500 on the Mifflin Groundhog Shoot site. Very few people take this sport more seriously or win more than Rod Morton and Nate Glover yet their winning targets with factory rifles have groups at 500 yards in the 4 inch and up area. 2" at 500 consistently with a factory gun is an absurd objective that will lead to abject failure.

http://www.mifflincosportsmens.com/groundhog.htm

 

[grovey]

Agreed... I simply meant it should be capable of shooting that well at 100.

 

[Homerange]

There's an enormous difference between 1/2 MOA at 100 yards and 1/2 MOA at 500 yards. A 2" group with a factory rifle at 500 yards is pure luck and no one is consistently that lucky.

If you doubt this check out the group sizes at 500 on the Mifflin Groundhog Shoot site. Very few people take this sport more seriously or win more than Rod Morton and Nate Glover yet their winning targets with factory rifles have groups at 500 yards in the 4 inch and up area. 2" at 500 consistently with a factory gun is an absurd objective that will lead to abject failure.

I beg to differ and have seen factory Tikka's consistently shoot 2" groups @ 500yds with handloads but NOT in sporter or lightweight barrels. Most of Tikka's Varmint weight barrels can accomplish this in the hands of a competent shooter.
My son's Tikka 243 SS fluted Hunter will shoot into 1/2" @ 100 all day long with handloads.

 

[cw308]

It's a crap shoot , some production barrels could be tack drivers , you just have to be the lucky on the , now if you have a match grade barrel most will be tack drivers know matter what company you use , just try to get one that wasn't made on a Monday . I bought a Remington LTR 308 Caliber great shooter , after 4000+ through the barrel I had the barrel changed to a M24 5R Rock Creek barrel installed and completely blueprinted . It still is my one and only benchrest rifle I never get the urge to shoot anyother .

 

[clunker]

There's an enormous difference between 1/2 MOA at 100 yards and 1/2 MOA at 500 yards. A 2" group with a factory rifle at 500 yards is pure luck and no one is consistently that lucky.

If you doubt this check out the group sizes at 500 on the Mifflin Groundhog Shoot site. Very few people take this sport more seriously or win more than Rod Morton and Nate Glover yet their winning targets with factory rifles have groups at 500 yards in the 4 inch and up area. 2" at 500 consistently with a factory gun is an absurd objective that will lead to abject failure.

http://www.mifflincosportsmens.com/groundhog.htm

I won't be totally disappointed if I can't reach the goal of 2" at 500 yds. I know that's a tall order for a factory rifle. But 0.5" MOA with handloads at 100 yds is not uncommon for a factory Tikka, and that is the equivalent of 2" at 400 yds. That being said, if I manage to get the Tikka to shoot 0.4" at 100 yds but can't achieve 2" at 500 yds, that's on me. Can't blame the rifle.

Beretta has been working on my Creedmoor for three weeks. If that thing doesn't shoot "lights out" by the time I get it back, there will be hell to pay. For the amount of materials and labor they have put into it, they should have just sent me a new one from Finland.

 

[Dave Berg]

I beg to differ and have seen factory Tikka's consistently shoot 2" groups @ 500yds with handloads but NOT in sporter or lightweight barrels. Most of Tikka's Varmint weight barrels can accomplish this in the hands of a competent shooter.

Sorry but I do not believe that for a minute. I've watched very talented shooters try for the last fifteen years with a lot of Tikkas, Savage LRPV, Coopers, etc. and have never seen anyone who could do it consistently. Once in a long while maybe but that, in my humble opinion, was luck.

 

[Dave Berg]

But 0.5" MOA with handloads at 100 yds is not uncommon for a factory Tikka, and that is the equivalent of 2" at 400 yds.

Mathematically it's equivalent but then things like wind and mirage really screw things up. The difference in degree of difficulty when going from 100 yards to 400 yards is not four, it's sixteen. It's proportional to the square of the difference. Trust me, you will find out that mother nature is a bitch....

 

[Homerange]

Sorry but I do not believe that for a minute. I've watched very talented shooters try for the last fifteen years with a lot of Tikkas, Savage LRPV, Coopers, etc. and have never seen anyone who could do it consistently. Once in a long while maybe but that, in my humble opinion, was luck.

Seeing is believing !
A mate that re-barreled a T3 Varmint 22-250 to 6mm Rem that would better suit his long range requirements shoots into 1 1/4" @ 500 yds and at velocities that you don't see in print !
His bro and bro inlaw shot 223 T3 Varminters into 2" with 69gr Bergers.

I know of others that have bought the T3 Sporter in .260 Rem and in very short order gone on to win 800yd matches.
It can be done, Tikka tubes are good tubes !
Of all the rifles I've seen shot in from new, Tikka tubes consistently copper foul the least such is their quality of tube finish. That does lead to the risk of overlooking copper fouling further down the track and risk of the tube drifting 'off song'.

 

[clunker]

Mathematically it's equivalent but then things like wind and mirage really screw things up. The difference in degree of difficulty when going from 100 yards to 400 yards is not four, it's sixteen. It's proportional to the square of the difference. Trust me, you will find out that mother nature is a bitch....

Yep! Not going to argue with that. But the degree of difficulty rests squarely on the shoulders of the shooter, not the rifle. There's no way I will ever achieve the prowess of marksmen like Morton and Glover, but if THEY can shoot my rifle with good handloads and reach my goals, then I have the right tool for the job. Then it's up to me to get better at shooting. There are many members on this forum who have stressed that you cannot get better at shooting if your rifle sucks. And even more members who have stressed that someone hoping to tighten groups with factory ammo is wasting his time. I think that is good advice. Let's see what the Creedmoor can do at 100 yds with load testing, then I'll see if my skill is up to the task.