Worst powders for hard carbon fouling?

[Forum Boss]

CaptainMal wrote: The users of the 6 BR case and all the variants on that case - from 22-30 cal BR's seem to have an exasperating issue with carbon fouling. Powders used most often are things like Varget, H4895 Rel 15, Rel 17, H4350, IMR 4166 and maybe a few others. It is a very noticeable issue with the BR case and does require some serious cleaning. Other calibers do not seem to have such a reoccurring and frustrating carbon issue as often as those using the BR case.

Forum Boss: Say what?

I started this site 15 years ago as 6mmBR.com. I have been shooting the cartridge a LONG time. Honestly the statement above doesn't make any sense to me AT ALL. I find my 6mmBR barrels easier to clean than many other calibers -- certainly easier than my .223 Rem which gets a lot of factory ammo.

I use mostly Varget, but I have also shot H4895, N150, IMR 8208.

Quote: "Does require some serious cleaning"?

Huh?

Here is my cleaning regime: 3-5 soaking wet patches with a solvent like Butches bore shine, or Patch-out. Doesn't really matter much -- I just try to get the lose black stuff out with the patches. Then I apply Wipe-out. Wait 15-20 minutes, then apply Wipe-Out again. This is all done right after I finish shooting for the day. Then I drive home from the range and patch the barrel out after 3-4 hours. That's it.

If barrel has to sit a month or more I will put a patch with Eezox through the bore.

I have never ever needed to use an abrasive in my 6mmBR barrels. Also I've shot this cartridge type in other guys' guns I certainly don't see that it carbon fouls more than other match cartridges.

I don't have a carbon ring problem. I have one barrel still shooting in the high ones after 700 rounds and it has never seen a brush.

I have other 6BR/Dasher barrels that may need some brushing but honestly this isn't a big deal at all.

Maybe the foam is really preventing problems other guys encounter. But even before WipeOut existed, cleaning my barrel wasn't a big deal at all. My .308 Win M1A was much harder to clean -- but that was a factory barrel.

CaptainMal: Sometimes it also takes "short stroking" that brush from chamber to about 4" into the bore. That's where the serious carbon fouling seems to stick. -- No, No, No! -- don't reverse a bronze brush inside your barrel!

 

[urbanrifleman]

I have never ever needed to use an abrasive in my 6mmBR barrels. Having used this caliber in other guys' guns I certainly don't see that it carbon fouls more than other match cartridges.

Tell you the truth Boss, I really don't think my latest barrels in 6BR need much cleaning at all. My new Kreiger 13.5 is just like a stick of hot butter inside when you run a patch. Really the thing is that Boretech does all the work. It is really amazing stuff. Let it sit for ten minutes or send wet patches every two minutes in the hot barrel and it's totally clean in about 8 minutes. There might be a speck of copper at the very end. The carbon is gone. I use the JB because I always have. I am not sure they need it. At least with N133, AA2015, or LT32.

But the Internet rumors says that hard carbon is inevitable, so I always scrub. Just to be sure. Not sure the Internet rumors are true. To your point.

I do not own a brush. Never have.

 

[Forum Boss]

There is certainly a difference between a hand-lapped custom barrel like a Krieger and a factory tube. But it does seem that repeated use of Wipe-Out does sort of condition the bore over time so it cleans easier.

 

[fatelvis]

I said it before but after messing with N160 I am going to N140 or N150 for my R15 uses in the future. These n1XX VV powders just don't leave much carbon at all....

It seems like I hear nothing but positive stuff about Vitahvouri powders. I’m definitely going to try them.

 

[Texas10]

Endoscope cameras have become so inexpensive that there really is no excuse to not own one. Without the ability to look into the chamber/throat, you're just guessing about the effectiveness of your barrel cleaning regime and the presence of carbon buildup. I've owned one for decades, having spent hundreds of dollars on something half as good as you can get today for less than a box of cheap ammo.
I easily see any carbon build up in the throat and edge of chamber neck, and remove it with a wire brush. And when measuring distance to lands with a new bullet, I start with a verified clean throat/leade so I don't get a false measurement. Here are some examples of some inexpensive cameras that will more than suffice.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06Y6D4KXC/?tag=accuratescom-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JERRES6/?tag=accuratescom-20
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Waterpro...Borescope-for-Android-Smartphone-PC/873783136

 

[JBT47]

It seems like I hear nothing but positive stuff about Vitahvouri powders. I’m definitely going to try them.

Great powders. Very clean burning. I use Viht N550 & 560 and those two burn cleaner than other powders of similar burn rate. These two powders yield excellent velocity as well.

 

[Forum Boss]

I own and use both hawkeye botescope and a digital bore cam. No carbon issues in barrel. Yes some firecracking in lead area after 800 rounds.

Again my technique involves flooding the bore with foam (twice) and letting it sit for many hours. This apparently has done the job without aggressive brushing or need for Abrasives. YMMV

 

[BoydAllen]

I agree that foam is great, and use it at home, but in the short range group game they shoot 20 individual matches in a weekend with sighters, and there is not enough time between matches for the foam, given that almost no one in the short range group game preloads, so methods have to be different. If you think that the people who have to clean differently are just ill informed or unsharp, shoot a match (weekend). I use the foam any time that I have the time. Friends who have bore scopes have found that over the course of many rounds and several foam cleanings that they have seen some evidence of residual powder fouling. Fortunately the foam seems to reduce the tenacity with which it sticks to the bore so it does not take much bronze brush and solvent work to remove it, and they do not have to do this every time. I believe most readers probably clean at home. If you do, get some Wipe Out and Accelerator, or Patch out and Accelerator, I predict that you will like it. For the foam I apply at the muzzle, use a rod guide that seals in the chamber, and cover my butt stock.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I just got a bottle of Wipe Out Patch Out. Man this stuff stinks!!! I am going to test against Bore Tech Eliminator which I have been happily using for several years and has ZERO odor.

First impression, not a fan.

 

[ShootDots]

Hard carbon, in my opinion, gets "worse" as you build HIGH pressure. Example: With a .308, going to the Palma brass, you can easily run 65-70,000PSI and not really hurt the case. However, at that pressure HARD carbon becomes a PITA to remove, even with JB and the like. Super high pressures are the REAL culprit, NOT the powder itself.. AND a build up of HARD carbon is truly an accuracy destroyer!

 

[1shot]

I’m in agreement with you Ben. If we could build enough pressure, we could turn that carbon into diamonds!! LOL
However, if we can attack the carbon early enough I think we minimize how much carbon cools, dries and gets harder than Superman’s elbow.

Lloyd

 

[group therapy]

I just got a good borescope and was wondering if someone can either post some pics of this carbon so us newbies knows what it looks like or tell me where to look for some pics? thanks in advance. bryant

 

[Eraser]

I just got a good borescope and was wondering if someone can either post some pics of this carbon so us newbies knows what it looks like or tell me where to look for some pics? thanks in advance. bryant

I would be very interested in this also.

 

[BoydAllen]

I would be very interested in this also.

Use anything liquid that you want to clean the barrel with brushes and patches, or felt plugs , as many times as you want, and anything that is left behind, assuming that you were very thorough will need some sort of particulate cleaner (IOSSO or JB Bore cleaner to remove. Call it what you will, but that is the essence. Some of it is very subtle, starting with a very small deposit at the very top of the chamfer that makes the transition between the the chamber neck and the freebore. Understand something, you only need to get a barrel as clean as is needed to obtain its best accuracy. New borescope owners tend to over react to what they see. Let targets tell you have a problem and use the bore scope to learn what it might be. The stuff that is at the end of the chamber neck is not hard carbon but simply powder fouling that your tools are not reaching. One more thing, I wish that everyone would just call powder fouling what it is and not carbon, which confuses discussions about the harder stuff that it may be turned into by pressure and heat. Something to keep in mind, a friend has a Savage varmint rifle that, based on what he sees in his bore scope and what the crown looks like should not shoot. It does quite nicely. If we could sort top grade match barrels with a bore scope, we would. Alas, no one can do that.

 

[Bc'z]

No, No, No! -- don't reverse a bronze brush inside your barrel![/QUOTE]

Why? Please explain.
Bronze brushes are softer than the steel of the barrel. So I'm not understanding the significance of not reversing the brush.
I shared photos of targets with another member yesterday that were shot on Friday. All shot with factory rifles, and ammo I loaded back in February.
Only mods to firearms is i lightened trigger pull myself. This target showing low.2s at 100 yards was checking poi after installing a brake on a supper cheap Ruger American predator, Boyd' s stock isn't even bedded yet as per thier recommendations.
f.
this target was 300 yards with wife's 260. Measures 1.2". This was the verry riffle that brought me to accurate shooter forums.
I couldn't get this gun to shoot to save my life until I landed here.
I'm a hunter not a competitive shooter anymore. I use to shoot competitive archery.
So you see I'm not understanding the significance, when i can buy the whole damn gun that shot either target cheaper than you can change a barrel. Wife's remington was 750 un-scoped, about same as a barrel job if you have to pay some else to chamber and set it.
Don't get wrong I truly want to build a custom and probably will out of classifieds here.
Either a 6br or possibly a 6mm creedmoor.

 

[Eraser]

Use anything liquid that you want to clean the barrel with brushes and patches, or felt plugs , as many times as you want, and anything that is left behind, assuming that you were very thorough will need some sort of particulate cleaner (IOSSO or JB Bore cleaner to remove. Call it what you will, but that is the essence. Some of it is very subtle, starting with a very small deposit at the very top of the chamfer that makes the transition between the the chamber neck and the freebore. Understand something, you only need to get a barrel as clean as is needed to obtain its best accuracy. New borescope owners tend to over react to what they see. Let targets tell you have a problem and use the bore scope to learn what it might be. The stuff that is at the end of the chamber neck is not hard carbon but simply powder fouling that your tools are not reaching. One more thing, I wish that everyone would just call powder fouling what it is and not carbon, which confuses discussions about the harder stuff that it may be turned into by pressure and heat. Something to keep in mind, a friend has a Savage varmint rifle that, based on what he sees in his bore scope and what the crown looks like should not shoot. It does quite nicely. If we could sort top grade match barrels with a bore scope, we would. Alas, no one can do that.

Boyd, you said,

"The stuff that is at the end of the chamber neck is not hard carbon but simply powder fouling that your tools are not reaching."

I have a picture I copied from a post made by jlow, that shows what Tony Boyer refers to in his book as the area of the ' carbon ring', witch you say is powder fouling. Or do I have it wrong?

 

[BoydAllen]

Some people refer to powder fouling as carbon. The hard carbon that is discussed is more difficult to remove. I believe that Tony's point is that carbon, or powder fouling can build up in the area shown and can cause accuracy problems. I agree, but this is different both in the difficulty of its being removed and precise location from so called hard carbon. There is a 45 degree transition in the chamber from the neck to the freebore, at the bottom of that angle, at the end of the neck, powder (or as Tony refers to it carbln) fouing can accumulate, because brushes are sized to the bore not the neck and they are bent as they are pushed into the freebore causing them to skip or bridge over that area. There are a number of ways to deal with this. Certainly catching it with each cleaning is a good idea. One way is to liberally apply IOSSO to a nylon brush the next caliber larger than the one you are shooting, push it to where you feel an increase in pressure at the end of the neck and give it several twists. Removing hard carbon is a little different but can be very similar. Back in the day when he was shooting T powder, which is pretty active forming hard carbon, he would short stroke an IOSSO filled nylon brush in the back third to half of the barrel several times, as part of his cleaning procedure that he did after every individual match. I always thought this a bit strange because I was shooting 133 which is much cleaner and does not require the use of IOSSO or JB, but when I got a chance to try another lot of surplus 8208 (which is what T powder is) I soon figured out why he did that.

 

[fatelvis]

I’ve been a big Sea Foam fan for use in all my engines at home, and now I hear guys using it to remove carbon in rifle bores?! That stuff is awesome!

 

[dickn52]

No, No, No! -- don't reverse a bronze brush inside your barrel!

Why? Please explain.
Bronze brushes are softer than the steel of the barrel. So I'm not understanding the significance of not reversing the brush.
I shared photos of targets with another member yesterday that were shot on Friday. All shot with factory rifles, and ammo I loaded back in February.
Only mods to firearms is i lightened trigger pull myself. This target showing low.2s at 100 yards was checking poi after installing a brake on a supper cheap Ruger American predator, Boyd' s stock isn't even bedded yet as per thier recommendations.
f.View attachment 1054761
View attachment 1054764 this target was 300 yards with wife's 260. Measures 1.2". This was the verry riffle that brought me to accurate shooter forums.
I couldn't get this gun to shoot to save my life until I landed here.
I'm a hunter not a competitive shooter anymore. I use to shoot competitive archery.
So you see I'm not understanding the significance, when i can buy the whole damn gun that shot either target cheaper than you can change a barrel. Wife's remington was 750 un-scoped, about same as a barrel job if you have to pay some else to chamber and set it.
Don't get wrong I truly want to build a custom and probably will out of classifieds here.
Either a 6br or possibly a 6mm creedmoor.[/QUOTE]
Theory as I understand it that by brushing in reverse you could drop powder foulings into the trigger and action. Not sure I ever heard anything about barrel wear.

 

[BoydAllen]

Why? Please explain.
Bronze brushes are softer than the steel of the barrel. So I'm not understanding the significance of not reversing the brush.
I shared photos of targets with another member yesterday that were shot on Friday. All shot with factory rifles, and ammo I loaded back in February.
Only mods to firearms is i lightened trigger pull myself. This target showing low.2s at 100 yards was checking poi after installing a brake on a supper cheap Ruger American predator, Boyd' s stock isn't even bedded yet as per thier recommendations.
f.View attachment 1054761
View attachment 1054764 this target was 300 yards with wife's 260. Measures 1.2". This was the verry riffle that brought me to accurate shooter forums.
I couldn't get this gun to shoot to save my life until I landed here.
I'm a hunter not a competitive shooter anymore. I use to shoot competitive archery.
So you see I'm not understanding the significance, when i can buy the whole damn gun that shot either target cheaper than you can change a barrel. Wife's remington was 750 un-scoped, about same as a barrel job if you have to pay some else to chamber and set it.
Don't get wrong I truly want to build a custom and probably will out of classifieds here.
Either a 6br or possibly a 6mm creedmoor.

Theory as I understand it that by brushing in reverse you could drop powder foulings into the trigger and action. Not sure I ever heard anything about barrel wear.[/QUOTE]
I have a little homework assignment for you. Take a new brush of the correct caliber and run it into your barrel about half way and then reverse the rod and pull it out of the barrel without first pushing it out of the muzzle... and come back and post how that went for you. As to your point about replacing a rifle rather than the barrel, you can do that, but you need to understand something. There is a world of difference between the best barrels and factory barrels. This is not to say that there are not exceptional factory barrels, but in general they are not quarter inch capable. Generally, unless we are talking about a sporter weight barrel chambered in a large caliber, groups tend to be five shots. Also If you put two bullet holes edge to edge, the size of that two shot group is the diameter of one of those holes. I often see groups that seem to show bullet holes that are farther apart than edge to edge, which are labeled as quite a bit smaller than that. Having said that, your rifle seems to be exceptionally accurate, and you seem to have done a good job working up the load.