Advice needed .223 80 and 90 vld

[RobC]

Hi All... first time posting from NZ

I am working up loads for a new 28" 1/7 True-Flite Match barrel to be used at 300 - 600yards.

I have attached a pic of my brass (ignore the copper colored primers, they were bought rounds for running in the barrel). The 5 sets of 3 from the left are 80gr VLD's, the next 3 sets were 90 VLD's.

You can see the grains powder written on the lid, the powder is AR2208 or Varget.

The 1st question... do you see any worrying pressure signs by looking at the primers... they all look the same to me?

The 2nd question... the best group was the 90vld with 22.5gr, however the freebore was reemed for the 80's so I can't get much more powder in the case. Would you still go with the 90's a bit slower or pursue the 80's with 25gr?

My next batch will be with the best powder loads from this test and I will start working on seating depth and 5 rounds of each... just not sure if I should focus on the 90's or the 80's.

PS... the 90's 3 shot group was 0.43moa seated 0.010 into the lands and the 80's with 24.5gr was 0.65moa also seated 0.010 into the lands at 110 yards. The wind was strong at around 15 to 20mph from behind.

These were also the 1st rounds through the barrel.

Any help appreciated.

Rob

 

[Cory porter]

If it is chambered for 80s but still want to try the 90s you may want to give the Sierra 90g smk a shot. I’m shooting 24.4g of varget in my 223 with 90g vld if that helps any.

 

[mtncwru]

Welcome to the forums! I've also been working up an 80 gr. .223 load, so I certainly feel your pain. I'm sticking with 80s, though, since I swore a blood oath when I joined the Palma Alliance. Also I can get them down to AICS mag length, which means I can use the same load all the time in my match rifle.

To answer your questions:
1. Hard to know for sure, but it looks like you have some primer cratering on your 24.0, 24.5, and 25.0 loads. The factory loads in the same columns look OK, which makes me think it's not just lighting. That could be because your powder charge is hot (25.0 grains of Varget behind an 80 gr. bullet is toasty), or it could be because you're seated into the lands.

2. Given that you're only going out to 600 yards, you don't need to worry about a hot load like you would for pushing out to 1000. If the 90s shot better than the 80s then I'd say shoot the 90s, assuming both are readily available in quantity to you. That being said...

I would submit that with the conditions you described you can't really hang your hat on any of those test results. Head/tail wind is liable to introduce elevation variance and any fishtail is going to play hell with your left-right besides: a wind change from 6 o'clock to just 5 o'clock at 15 mph introduces 0.5" of windage at 100 yards with a 90 VLD, according to Berger's calculator. The fact that you held the groups you did under those conditions is terrific, and certainly an indication that your gun likes to shoot, but I don't think I'd be making any specific load plans just yet.

Did you put those loads across a chronograph? If so can you share your statistics for each? That would likely be a better indicator than your groups, especially since it sounds like most of your groups were decent.

 

[liseo]

I giving up in my attempt to use the 90 VLD in my custom 223. I wasted almost 200 bullets trying to find an accurate load.
I cant get 5 shots below 1 inch at 100 m, and tried hard. Some groups in the 2 inches range. I never realized that a custom rifle, with krieger barrel, would shoot this bad . The twist is 1/7, if you ask

I will stick with 77 TMK, they group a lot better. This is my F TR rifle for 300 m. For longer distances, will pick up the 308

 

[RobC]

Hi Guys... thanks for the responses.

Yep, I am very happy with the barrel so far... the fun part is it is attached to a Tikka T3 action and stock ... it has some bedding and stiffening but noting else. The barrel profile is quite meaty so not much recoil to talk about.

Regarding the primer pockets... I see what you mean regarding the cratering, I wasn't sure what to look for, but will analyse them better when I get home from work.

I was surprised by the 90's, I only loaded 9 rounds just for fun... forgot to put powder in the 1 ... but all 3 groups were well under a MOA. I was just not sure whether I would get enough speed out of 22.5gr to make them work well enough over 600yards. Unfortunately, I didn't chrony any... will do next time. I really just went to the range to shoot in the barrel and find some powder loads so that I could start working on seating depth.

I will update this post with chrony results after the next shoot... I will load some 22.5gr 90's and some 23.5gr 80's at different seating depths. Unfortunately the next range day I can make is the 13th May... so a bit of a wait

Regards

Rob

 

[Ned Ludd]

To provide better feedback, we need a little more information. If you can provide your COAL and seating depth (relationship to lands) for both bullets, together with the velocities you generated, it would be helpful.

In general, a rifle properly throated for the 80-something bullets will be way too short for the 90s. It's not that you can't get them to shoot, it's that you give up so much velocity due to the smaller [apparent case] volume that the performance isn't any better than with the lighter lower BC bullet. In addition, trying to run the 90s in a setup like that is also asking for very poor brass life. Even in a setup optimized for the 90s, brass life isn't so great if you are pushing them up near MAX pressure, as many are that are shooting them in F-TR.

Finally, if you're set on using the 90s, many have found a nice seating seating depth tune window between ~.004" and .007" into the lands; however, as you can see it's pretty narrow. You might also try ~.015" to .020" or so off the lands (jumped). In my hands, they tune in very well in that region. You'll give up even a tick more case volume seating them out of the lands, but the trade off is that you won't get the initial pressure issues sometimes associated with bullets seated into the lands, or have to continually chase the lands so often.

Another approach you might consider - throat out this rifle using a PTG Unithroater. A rifle throated for the 90s at 0.169" freebore will still be able to seat the shorter 80 gr bullets. To be sure, they'll be seated well out in the neck, but it works just fine. You've gone the other direction with a rifle optimized for the 80s, which tends not to work well when going to the longer heavier bullets as you found. You could [carefully] lengthen the freebore enough to seat the 90s, and still not lose the ability to load the 80s.

 

[RobC]

To provide better feedback, we need a little more information. If you can provide your COAL and seating depth (relationship to lands) for both bullets, together with the velocities you generated, it would be helpful.

In general, a rifle properly throated for the 80-something bullets will be way too short for the 90s. It's not that you can't get them to shoot, it's that you give up so much velocity due to the smaller [apparent case] volume that the performance isn't any better than with the lighter lower BC bullet. In addition, trying to run the 90s in a setup like that is also asking for very poor brass life. Even in a setup optimized for the 90s, brass life isn't so great if you are pushing them up near MAX pressure, as many are that are shooting them in F-TR.

Finally, if you're set on using the 90s, many have found a nice seating seating depth tune window between ~.004" and .007" into the lands; however, as you can see it's pretty narrow. You might also try ~.015" to .020" or so off the lands (jumped). In my hands, they tune in very well in that region. You'll give up even a tick more case volume seating them out of the lands, but the trade off is that you won't get the initial pressure issues sometimes associated with bullets seated into the lands, or have to continually chase the lands so often.

Another approach you might consider - throat out this rifle using a PTG Unithroater. A rifle throated for the 90s at 0.169" freebore will still be able to seat the shorter 80 gr bullets. To be sure, they'll be seated well out in the neck, but it works just fine. You've gone the other direction with a rifle optimized for the 80s, which tends not to work well when going to the longer heavier bullets as you found. You could [carefully] lengthen the freebore enough to seat the 90s, and still not lose the ability to load the 80s.

Hi... thanks for the reply.

As a starting point I seated both the 80 and 90 .010 into the lands as that has worked well with VLD's for me in the past. I will update you on the COAL, it is in my notebook at home.

As mentioned I will load up a batch of 80's and 90's... using 23.5 and 22.5 of varget respectively with varying seating depths and chrony them next range day... I will post the results.

Gut feel after reading your post is just to stick with the 80's... however once i have the velocity I can check which bullet performs best in the wind at 600y and then go with that. I might load up the 90's on some once fired ADI brass from bought rounds and blast them off just for kicks... have a go at 1000 then get rid of the brass

 

[Ned Ludd]

I shoot both the Berger 80.5 Fullbores and the 90 VLDs in several different .223s. Both can be loaded to shoot with extremely good precision. However, in my hands the 80s are not even close to the 90s in terms of wind deflection, no matter how fast they are driven. That doesn't mean they can't (or don't) work, because plenty of folk have used both successfully in competition. It's just that the 90s also come with more pressure, brass life, and seating depth issues than the 80.5s/82s, which are not secant ogive bullets. So their better wind performance is not without some cost.

Several years ago when I first decided to give the 90 VLDs a try, there wasn't a ton of information available online about what others had done to get them to shoot. What was available was also all over the place; a little here, a little there, and so forth. I spent a long time trying to piece it all together and come up with a coherent plan for the 1st rifle I had purpose-built for the 90s/F-TR. Like you, I started them out at .010" into the lands because that's what the majority of people from whom I found reloading information had used. They shot "OK" at .010" in, but not great, maybe 0.50 to 0.75 MOA for 5-shot groups at 100 yd. Because I knew they were capable of much better precision, I spent a great deal of time testing in small increments into and out of the lands. In my hands, there are two seating depth windows where they really seem to tune in: ~.004" to .007 into the lands, and around .020" off the lands. Of those two seating depth windows, the one around .020" off the lands is usually much wider, meaning more shots fired before it becomes becomes necessary to re-test and adjust seating depth to account for land erosion. In fairness, a number of FTR shooters here have tested similar seating depth ranges and many did not find a good window in the ~.020" off region. Those folks generally have gone with the .004" to .007" into the lands region and accepted what having them seated into the lands entails. I'm merely pointing this out to provide you with other seating depth options to test and see how they might work in your setup.

Regardless of which bullet weight class you go with, the .223 Rem can be tuned in with pretty ridiculous precision and is simply a joy to shoot with its minimal recoil. I've always found that seating depth is the real key to precision with .224" bullets, so stay with it and I'm sure you'll come up with something you'll be very happy with.

 

[hikfromstik]

How do you like that adi brass ? As soon as I saw that copper primer I zoomed in to look if they were adi brass. How are they compared to Lake city brass? I have a butt load of ADI outback 55grain blitz kings to shoot .

 

[RobC]

How do you like that adi brass ? As soon as I saw that copper primer I zoomed in to look if they were adi brass. How are they compared to Lake city brass? I have a butt load of ADI outback 55grain blitz kings to shoot .

My 1st reloading attempts have been using the ADI brass. I found the Aussie Outback 69gr ammo worked best in my Tikka T3, so had quite a lot of the brass. So I started reloading 70gr and 75gr VLD's using Varget, Federal primers and the ADI brass... I was getting .6 MOA at 300 yards with the best loads but found they opened up at 500 and 600y. The Tikka was a lite with 22inch barrel.

The 300y mound was grass and i could load the bipod which gave the best results. The 500 and 600 mounds are concrete so the rifle just slid forward when I lent into it and hopped around a bit.

So I am hoping the 28" heavy barrel will make it a bit easier to shoot... at some stage I will try and get a better bipod and try free recoil, but for now it is just a Harris type.

I have only reused the ADI brass about 4 times.. so not so sure on how long it will last... for the new barrel I bought some Lapua and will save the ADI for some experimenting with the 90's.

 

[RobC]

Update...

Tikka T3 Action, TrueFlite 28" Heavy Profile barrel 1:7, Lapua, Federal 205M primers and 80gr VLD, 23.5gr AR2208/Varget

These groups where shot with new Lapua brass at 100m, the only case prep done was chamfering and neck sizing.

The number 1.885 is the OAL and the rest of the numbers should make sense.

Some questions/observations...

I am extremely surprised at the Spread and StdDev for the 1.991 group, especially since this was unfired brass. Have others had similar experiences with new brass?
Which group do I go for? I am guessing the 1.991 based on the consistency.
I am amazed at the difference in Spread and StdDev when the only thing changing is the seating depth, all groups are with 23.5gr AR2208/Varget. Is this normal?

I am not sure my shooting was the best with a 16x scope I feel my aim point was not as precise as it could be.

Where to from here? Should I try to get the stats better or just load them and shoot them? Maybe more speed?

Sorry for the newbie questions, but the results seem unusually good and I am concerned that something is wrong statistically.

The 2nd image of 3 groups is with the 90 VLDs and 22.5gr Varget... still trying to find the sweet spot. Concentrating on the 80's for now though.

Any thoughts comments are appreciated!

Regards

Rob

 

[manitou210]

Update...

Tikka T3 Action, TrueFlite 28" Heavy Profile barrel 1:7, Lapua, Federal 205M primers and 80gr VLD, 23.5gr AR2208/Varget

These groups where shot with new Lapua brass at 100m, the only case prep done was chamfering and neck sizing.

The number 1.885 is the OAL and the rest of the numbers should make sense.

Some questions/observations...

I am extremely surprised at the Spread and StdDev for the 1.991 group, especially since this was unfired brass. Have others had similar experiences with new brass?
Which group do I go for? I am guessing the 1.991 based on the consistency.
I am amazed at the difference in Spread and StdDev when the only thing changing is the seating depth, all groups are with 23.5gr AR2208/Varget. Is this normal?

I am not sure my shooting was the best with a 16x scope I feel my aim point was not as precise as it could be.

Where to from here? Should I try to get the stats better or just load them and shoot them? Maybe more speed?

Sorry for the newbie questions, but the results seem unusually good and I am concerned that something is wrong statistically.

The 2nd image of 3 groups is with the 90 VLDs and 22.5gr Varget... still trying to find the sweet spot. Concentrating on the 80's for now though.

Any thoughts comments are appreciated!

Regards

Rob



View attachment 1050330
View attachment 1050331

more Varget 24.5 to 24.8