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I've never had the greatest luck with .223 reloadinhg

The mandrel is sized .002 under bullet dimension. (.222 in this case) and gives VERY consistent neck tension vs an expander ball. When I reload bigger calipers I will use a bushing/collet die that gets the neck barely under sized, and finish them off in a carbide mandrel. In my mind, I want the inside of the neck to be round, not the outside to make up for any imperfections in the brass.

I single feed when I'm shoot this gun. Gas is not adjustable.

FWIW - I've also used a .222" carbide mandrel and your thoughts on what it should do mirror what I used to think. However, in practice, MV's were extremely erratic, exactly like the values you showed above. I don't ever use the expander ball in a resizing die, they come out as soon as I get it. I just let the bushing do its job. Once it became obvious there was a problem, I compared MVs using brass prepped solely by bushing die to those with brass prepped with the expander mandrel. Brass prepped with the bushing die was fine and gave the typical ES values I expect. Turns out that in my hands, the expander mandrel WAS the problem, so I quit using it. You can do whatever you like, but the fact we both used the same approach and both had ridiculously high ES values is probably not a coincidence. I have also used the expander mandrel with larger calibers and it works just fine. But in the .223, it wasn't worth messing with any further to try and get it to work.
 
first step
change primers
second step change powder
rl15, 2520
but i think primer is the issue.
 
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Primers might be an issue. high SD and ES numbers look like ignition.

You also have to remember that a store-bought mass produced barrel is just that. And if you can get consistent groups .7 to 1 MOA in an AR platform, it isn’t a bad shooter. To get better than that start thinking custom barrels hand fitted by a good AR Smith.
 
FWIW - I've also used a .222" carbide mandrel and your thoughts on what it should do mirror what I used to think. However, in practice, MV's were extremely erratic, exactly like the values you showed above. I don't ever use the expander ball in a resizing die, they come out as soon as I get it. I just let the bushing do its job. Once it became obvious there was a problem, I compared MVs using brass prepped solely by bushing die to those with brass prepped with the expander mandrel. Brass prepped with the bushing die was fine and gave the typical ES values I expect. Turns out that in my hands, the expander mandrel WAS the problem, so I quit using it. You can do whatever you like, but the fact we both used the same approach and both had ridiculously high ES values is probably not a coincidence. I have also used the expander mandrel with larger calibers and it works just fine. But in the .223, it wasn't worth messing with any further to try and get it to work.
Hi Gstaylorg,

I've been reading your two post with a lot of interest. Your experience completely mirrors mine. I guess I am wondering what your thoughts are as to what the expander is doing in terms of increasing ES. At least logically speaking, the ID of the neck should be better with the expander (after bushing die) than say just bushing alone unless of course you neck turn your brass.

FWIW, my seating force with the bushing/expander is very consistent.
 
I've thought long and hard on why using the expander mandrel might be a problem. Honestly, I'm not sure I've came up with anything that was really very insightful.

The best I have is this: it's a neck tension issue. It's definitely not a primer issue. When you size a neck down from the outside in a bushing die, springback will cause the neck to open up slightly beyond the point to which the bushing sized it down. When opening up necks with a mandrel, springback does exactly the opposite. Although I'm not using a force measurement seating die system, I can actually feel the difference in seating depth force for some cases when seating bullets. Given the leverage inherent to a full-sized Rockchucker press handle, if you can feel the difference, it's probably pretty large. What I can tell you for certain is that when I prepped brass using the .222 carbide mandrel as the final sizing step, out of the clear blue I started seeing ES values of 50, 60, or even 80 fps, whereas I could usually keep the ES under 20 fps during several years and many thousands of rounds reloading heavy bullets for F-TR competition in the .223. Going back to my original brass prep method alleviated the issue, whereas different Lots of primers had essentially no effect.

The only other thing that comes to mind is that when you use an expander mandrel to size the neck, you're sizing the neck from the inside all the way to the shoulder. A bushing die will typically only size the outermost 75-80% of the neck. So that is another difference, although I really don't have any clear idea why that should send ES values so high in my specific loads. As I mentioned above, I have used the same expander mandrel approach with .308 Win cases, and it seems to work just fine. So it's possible there's something specific about the inherently smaller .223 Rem case that lends itself to the erratic ES issue. I can't really say with any certainty. What I do know is that I quit using the mandrel approach with .223 Rem because the ES values were simply unacceptable for competition loads. Further, my original brass prep approach using a bushing die was never broken and worked just fine to begin with. Like the OP, I simply thought opening up the necks from the inside with a mandrel as the last step would produce even more uniform neck tension and was therefore worth a try. Because I know I can generate acceptable ES values using my bushing dies, I'm not really interested in wasting any more time trying to make the expander mandrel approach work, or for that matter, trying to figure out why it didn't work so well in my hands.
 
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FWIW: I have some loads worked up w/ Varget and Rem 7.5 primers. I'll work up the same load with different primers (CCI BR4) and compare numbers. I wanted to try this out today but it's WAY too windy for load dev and I have an FTR comp on saturday.

Might go to an indoor 100yd range and get it tested just to remove variables.
 
I've thought long and hard on why using the expander mandrel might be a problem. Honestly, I'm not sure I've came up with anything that was really very insightful.

The best I have is this: it's a neck tension issue. It's definitely not a primer issue. When you size a neck down from the outside in a bushing die, springback will cause the neck to open up slightly beyond the point to which the bushing sized it down. When opening up necks with a mandrel, springback does exactly the opposite. Although I'm not using a force measurement seating die system, I can actually feel the difference in seating depth force for some cases when seating bullets. Given the leverage inherent to a full-sized Rockchucker press handle, if you can feel the difference, it's probably pretty large. What I can tell you for certain is that when I prepped brass using the .222 carbide mandrel as the final sizing step, out of the clear blue I started seeing ES values of 50, 60, or even 80 fps, whereas I could usually keep the ES under 20 fps during several years and many thousands of rounds reloading heavy bullets for F-TR competition in the .223. Going back to my original brass prep method alleviated the issue, whereas different Lots of primers had essentially no effect.

The only other thing that comes to mind is that when you use an expander mandrel to size the neck, you're sizing the neck from the inside all the way to the shoulder. A bushing die will typically only size the outermost 75-80% of the neck. So that is another difference, although I really don't have any clear idea why that should send ES values so high in my specific loads. As I mentioned above, I have used the same expander mandrel approach with .308 Win cases, and it seems to work just fine. So it's possible there's something specific about the inherently smaller .223 Rem case that lends itself to the erratic ES issue. I can't really say with any certainty. What I do know is that I quit using the mandrel approach with .223 Rem because the ES values were simply unacceptable for competition loads. Further, my original brass prep approach using a bushing die was never broken and worked just fine to begin with. Like the OP, I simply thought opening up the necks from the inside with a mandrel as the last step would produce even more uniform neck tension and was therefore worth a try. Because I know I can generate acceptable ES values using my bushing dies, I'm not really interested in wasting any more time trying to make the expander mandrel approach work, or for that matter, trying to figure out why it didn't work so well in my hands.
Thanks for the detailed reply. I am going to have to give this no mandrel approach...
 
you have not changed primers, do not expect to see any big changes.
FWIW: I have some loads worked up w/ Varget and Rem 7.5 primers. I'll work up the same load with different primers (CCI BR4) and compare numbers. I wanted to try this out today but it's WAY too windy for load dev and I have an FTR comp on saturday.

Might go to an indoor 100yd range and get it tested just to remove variables.
 
you have not changed primers, do not expect to see any big changes.

Retired grumpy pants: I'm doing a side by side of the 7 1/2 and the BR4 with the same loads and brass. I'm sorry if my experimenting troubles you in some way. Perhaps this isn't the thread best suited for your type of participation.
 
i did not see the br4s when i posted, let us know how it works out.

Retired grumpy pants: I'm doing a side by side of the 7 1/2 and the BR4 with the same loads and brass. I'm sorry if my experimenting troubles you in some way. Perhaps this isn't the thread best suited for your type of participation.
 
Retired grumpy pants: I'm doing a side by side of the 7 1/2 and the BR4 with the same loads and brass. I'm sorry if my experimenting troubles you in some way. Perhaps this isn't the thread best suited for your type of participation.

seems to me if you really wanted to compare the 2 different primers you would have to do load development for each. using a load developed for one with a different primer might skew your results. could be even different powders should be tried. varget, rl15, n140, etc
 
seems to me if you really wanted to compare the 2 different primers you would have to do load development for each. using a load developed for one with a different primer might skew your results. could be even different powders should be tried. varget, rl15, n140, etc

I have been testing primers lately with established loads with low ES and SD numbers developed on the CCI 400. Testing with Rem 7/1/2s , Fed 205, and CCI 450. One load improved with a Fed 205, two others remained the same. For whatever the Rem 7 1/2s were the worst performers. That surprised me as I have read some posts and blogs by people I have faith in which said they worked great with flake and ball powders. CFE 223 and TAC were 2 of the loads I tested. Sometimes it seems the more I learn about this hobby the more confused I get.
 
Primers might be an issue. high SD and ES numbers look like ignition.

You also have to remember that a store-bought mass produced barrel is just that. And if you can get consistent groups .7 to 1 MOA in an AR platform, it isn’t a bad shooter. To get better than that start thinking custom barrels hand fitted by a good AR Smith.
I wouldn't call a WOA barrel your typical store bought mass produced item. It is a custom barrel, and John Hollinger IS a good AR smith. While everyone makes a dud sometimes, in this case, it would be the last place I looked.
 
I use 8208 in a different cartridge shot out of an AR. If I showed you the difference a primer made in my situation you or anyone else for that matter would believe me.

For whatever reason CCI 400 and 450s shot terrible. Huge groups and ES/SD. I struggled with this upper for over a year until I decided to try some federal GM primers that I had laying around.

Turned a shot gun pattern producing rifle into one that printed nice small group.

I can’t explain it but everything was the exact same except for the primer.

Lack of neck tension may be leading to bullet setback as previously mentioned also.

I would test the different primers like you intend to but also test single feeding to see if that reveals anything.

Long winded but these are the two easiest things to change.
 
They list the barrel as a varmint hunter application with a “custom” chamber. I suggest eliminating doubt and going with something a little more proven. Personally a jp precision barrel with 20” barrel and a Wylde chamber should help. Going from a bench rest background I think your expectations may be a little high without going with the best. There are others too but I started with jp and never needed to try anything else.
 

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