Annealing test

[dkhunt14]

if the neck slides down into the body,,then where the hell did the shoulder go,,I must know,,

It kinda went after and slumped right down. My annealing machine has dip switches for time. Whichever ones are flipped they add up. One was bumped on and I didn't see it. When it turned into the flame and started turning. I said come out, come out because I knew it was overtime. It turned cherry red and just kinda turned inside out. Matt

 

[pirate ammo]

It kinda went after and slumped right down. My annealing machine has dip switches for time. Whichever ones are flipped they add up. One was bumped on and I didn't see it. When it turned into the flame and started turning. I said come out, come out because I knew it was overtime. It turned cherry red and just kinda turned inside out. Matt

all that damn heat scared the heck out of it ,, run like fire on its butt,,look out Guffy,,its coming your way,,

 

[riflewoman]

That is the most ridicules piece of writing I have ever read on this forum, like you are the only one that 'PAID PARTICULAR CLOSE ATTENTION???'


F. Guffey

You must not read your drivel at all then.

 

[LHSmith]

That is the most ridicules piece of writing I have ever read on this forum, like you are the only one that 'PAID PARTICULAR CLOSE ATTENTION???'



F. Guffey

Must have hit a nerve. First person Guffey yelled at on this forum. Perhaps it was the "cone" thing.....and Guff thought he was "the only one" who knew.

 

[Medic505]

260 Ravage said:



Reloaders in the old days did not require counseling and for the most part when asked they could give good rational for doing each task. I like the one I gave; I suggested the case requires annealing to reduce the cases ability to resist sizing. Today; reloaders grind the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die to increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

Back in the old days I would use a feeler gage to raise the deck height of the shell holder, raising the shell holders' deck height increases the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

F. Guffey

SO, doesn't that make headspace?.....

 

[fguffey]

As far as fguffey’s claim that headspace of the cartridge is difficult to correct by sizing, non other than LE Wilson published an article in The American Rifleman and reprinted in the 1968 version of the NRA Handloader Guide stating that incomplete sizing changes the cartridge length to “cone” datum.

Did you understand the part where I said the case does not have head space? And in my drivel I have used the term 'shoulder/datum' hundreds of times to avoid confusing reloaders. The part where I do not believe you have a clue is the part comes when the article claims incomplete sizing changes the cartridge length.

One more time: I have a 30/06 rifle with a chamber that is .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case when measured from the shoulder/datum to the case head. For me this chamber does not present a problem, I use 280 Remington cases necked up top 30 CAL. with .014" added to the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. I know you do not have a clue but this method of forming/sizing gives me the magic .002" clearance.

Methods and techniques: When forming/sizing cases for this chamber I adjust the sizing die off the shell holder .011" thousands meaning my new shoulder is formed from the case body, I have no choice because it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support. I know, you do not understand but the 280 Remington case is .051" longer from the datum/shoulder to the case head than the 30/06 case is from the datum/shoulder to the case head.

And then it gets very difficult for a reloader to keep up with because I did not change the chamber, all other reloaderws with long chambers insist on trimming the length of the case according to trim length instructions, I don't, I add the .014" to the length of the case.

As far as fguffey’s claim that headspace of the cartridge is difficult to correct by sizing

I size cases with a press, die and shell holder, when I size the case I control the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head. And then there is 'size to what'? there is full length sizing, that would be the same as minimum length. What is minimum length? I do not believe you understood the article from L.E. Wilson.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

The part where I do not believe you have a clue is the part comes when the article claims incomplete sizing changes the cartridge length.

Start a thread about the options of trimming: There is the standard old case trimmer and then there are trimmers that set up on the shoulder and there is the L.E. Wilson case gage. When I place a fired case into the Wilson case gage the case head protrudes from the gage .011" but the case mouth does not protrude from the Wilson case gage; that is good thing but if a reloader measured the length of my cases for that chamber they would insist on trimming the cases .016". Where did the .016" come from?

F. Guffey

 

[Comrade Terry]

 

[dellet]

Start a thread about the options of trimming: There is the standard old case trimmer and then there are trimmers that set up on the shoulder and there is the L.E. Wilson case gage. When I place a fired case into the Wilson case gage the case head protrudes from the gage .011" but the case mouth does not protrude from the Wilson case gage; that is good thing but if a reloader measured the length of my cases for that chamber they would insist on trimming the cases .016". Where did the .016" come from?

F. Guffey

It came from the .280 case you made this modified 30-06 from

 

[Cloudrepair]

The case trim length is related to the rifle chamber length your chamber is .014-.016 longer than it should be so your case trim length can be (.014-.016) longer

I feel like im asking for trouble

 

[riflewoman]

Did you understand the part where I said the case does not have head space? And in my drivel I have used the term 'shoulder/datum' hundreds of times to avoid confusing reloaders. The part where I do not believe you have a clue is the part comes when the article claims incomplete sizing changes the cartridge length.

By true definition of headspace, neither rifles nor cartridges have “headspace”. Headspace is the space between the breech face and the head of the cartridge. The relationship is symbiotic. The rifle has a “headspace” dimension and the cartridge has a corresponding “headspace” dimension. THAT is how it works. So we can call the corresponding dimension on cartridges the “Headspace” dimension because that is its function. In the case of a rimless cartridge that is a datum diameter on the case shoulder and the distance from the base or head of the case.

One more time: I have a 30/06 rifle with a chamber that is .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case when measured from the shoulder/datum to the case head. For me this chamber does not present a problem, I use 280 Remington cases necked up top 30 CAL. with .014" added to the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. I know you do not have a clue but this method of forming/sizing gives me the magic .002" clearance.

You do not have a 30-06. You have a 30/280 wildcat. I suggest you either get the headspace corrected or remark the barrel to reflect the true cartridge. If someone else comes into possession of this rifle, that person is at risk of personal injury as the “headspace” is past the “field reject” dimension.

Methods and techniques: When forming/sizing cases for this chamber I adjust the sizing die off the shell holder .011" thousands meaning my new shoulder is formed from the case body, I have no choice because it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support. I know, you do not understand but the 280 Remington case is .051" longer from the datum/shoulder to the case head than the 30/06 case is from the datum/shoulder to the case head.

You seem to not understand metal forming and what goes on inside a reloading die. If you’re starting with 280 brass, you’re just accommodating the increased headspace in your rifle by using the longer case and pushing the shoulder of the 280 case back to form the new shoulder. So by these statements, you are admitting to pushing the shoulder back and forming a new shoulder from case body in a die that fully supports the case body except at the mouth of the case.

And then it gets very difficult for a reloader to keep up with because I did not change the chamber, all other reloaderws with long chambers insist on trimming the length of the case according to trim length instructions, I don't, I add the .014" to the length of the case.

If your chamber is .014” longer in “headspace” then it is highly likely the chamber can accommodate a case .014 longer. However an examination of your rifle for that dimension must be performed to say with certainty.

I size cases with a press, die and shell holder, when I size the case I control the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head. And then there is 'size to what'? there is full length sizing, that would be the same as minimum length. What is minimum length? I do not believe you understood the article from L.E. Wilson.

F. Guffey

I think I understand the article better than you because I read it in 1972 And I took the time to ask knowledgeable shooters and reloaders who were tool and die makers about it. They loaned tools to demonstrate it for myself.

 

[Cloudrepair]

By true definition of headspace, neither rifles nor cartridges have “headspace”. Headspace is the space between the breech face and the head of the cartridge. The relationship is symbiotic. The rifle has a “headspace” dimension and the cartridge has a corresponding “headspace” dimension. THAT is how it works. So we can call the corresponding dimension on cartridges the “Headspace” dimension because that is its function. In the case of a rimless cartridge that is a datum diameter on the case shoulder and the distance from the base or head of the case.



You do not have a 30-06. You have a 30/280 wildcat. I suggest you either get the headspace corrected or remark the barrel to reflect the true cartridge. If someone else comes into possession of this rifle, that person is at risk of personal injury as the “headspace” is past the “field reject” dimension.



You seem to not understand metal forming and what goes on inside a reloading die. If you’re starting with 280 brass, you’re just accommodating the increased headspace in your rifle by using the longer case and pushing the shoulder of the 280 case back to form the new shoulder. So by these statements, you are admitting to pushing the shoulder back and forming a new shoulder from case body in a die that fully supports the case body except at the mouth of the case.



If your chamber is .014” longer in “headspace” then it is highly likely the chamber can accommodate a case .014 longer. However an examination of your rifle for that dimension must be performed to say with certainty.



I think I understand the article better than you because I read it in 1972 And I took the time to ask knowledgeable shooters and reloaders who were tool and die makers about it. They loaned tools to demonstrate it for myself.

What I would have said if I was better with words/typing

 

[Webster]

What I would have said if I was better with words/typing

I cut and pasted many of Fguffey's dumb statements into a word doc for fun. I need to update it. i think it would be inappropriate to put on this website. The list is 2 pages long. I don't know how many times he said he took a factory rifle to the range and shot a 1/4" group the first time out. Once he said he had 125 reamers ($200 a piece). That's a lot for someone that apparently isn't a gunsmith. Based on what he says he must have well over 50 rifles.

 

[fguffey]

You do not have a 30-06. You have a 30/280 wildcat. I suggest you either get the headspace corrected or remark the barrel to reflect the true cartridge. If someone else comes into possession of this rifle, that person is at risk of personal injury as the “headspace” is past the “field reject” dimension.

The chamber is .035" shorter than a 280 Remington chamber and .011" longer than a 30/06 chamber. Again; I have said component manufacturers do not make cases for reloaders that know what they are doing. The rifle is not rare and or unusual, there are many of them in existence. All over the internet the reloader believe the firing pin drives the case forward until the shoulder of the case collides with the shoulder of the chamber. If that was true the shoulder of my cases would have moved forward and the case would have stretched between the case head and case body. The one thing a reloader does not understand the theory about the case being driven forward is flawed.

past the “field reject” dimension

I chambered an 8mm57 in one of my 8mm/06 chambers and pulled the trigger. The difference in length between the two chambers is .227". After firing I ejected the case; the case looked like a 30/06 case with a very short neck. The case did not stretch between the case head and case body, the shoulder did not move. AND! the case did not crack and or split at the neck when it became part of the shoulder.

The rifle with its long chamber is part of a long boring story, it took me a while to find those involved and it took me longer to determine why the long chambers were tracked to an event. After reading the story I wondered what 'it was' that was not understood about methods and or techniques when measuring the length of the chamber. And then there was the question about firing cases in the long chamber without case head separation.

Today reloaders have head space everywhere and every tool is a head space gage; all I want to know is the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face. And then there are reloaders, they want to convince me they can bump the shoulder back but never tell me how they managed that. I have been honest from the beginning: I can not move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey

 

[Comrade Terry]

 

[dcali]

Some things never change. I love this place.

 

[Eric Leonard]

Wow I was thinking the same thing. Reminds me of that song. Right round and round. Matt

it reminds me of another song,,

 

[muleman69]

Some things never change. I love this place.

My day would not be complete with out Fdoofey

 

[fguffey]

Some things never change. I love this place.

I understand your anger, for the rest I do not feel sorry for. Riflewoman is not the first member to believe I was the first 'shooter' to chamber a short round in a long chamber, there were several experts that preformed the test and did not understand their success. There was a member on this forum that was wildly indignant about everything. He reminded me of a stalker because I believe he felt threatened and for the most part members were scared of him.

He had a way of forcing members to agree with him, I thought he despised feeler gages, transfers and standards. One day he had all he could stand when I provoked him to remove his hands from the keyboard and pick up a book. In that book he found the results of test made while shooting short cases in a long chamber. As when the test were made rifles had different designs. The test were identified as Category 1. Category 11 and Category 111 etc..

The test were performed to prove and or disapprove the wives tale that excessive clearance between the chamber and case would result in case head separation. One test was performed with a chamber that had been lengthen .060". The rifle was an 03 Springfield, Back to the smith that built 4 magnificent wildcat 7MM rifles using 03 receivers. He had 5 case head separations out of the first 10 rounds fired. He called: I told him he could have tested the receivers to determine if case head separation was a possibility, I told him I could have 'fixed ' the problem long enough for him to fire form his cases or I could form the cases before he fired then.

As a few can see this forum had furnished good information for those that are looking for good information but there is a large element of members that are here for the sole purpose of disruption.

And then on the widely indignant one made a claim as being the author information pertaining to shell holders, he was desperate for attention, And then, from nowhere came this member that said he was wrong, the member claimed to be good at searching archives; he said he had made search after search and found two reference on the topic and his name was nowhere near.

All he had to say was "the information was furnished on the bottom of a counter display box from C&H of El Monte, California. Problem: he did not have a clue.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

As far as fguffey’s claim that headspace of the cartridge is difficult to correct by sizing,

Again, I make no claim; I do insist the case does not have head space and now I am convinced I am the only reloader that uses the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head to off set the length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face.

I am the only reloader that claims the case can have a resistance to sizing, and now I will tell you a case with a lot of resistance to sizing can cause difficulty in reducing the length of the case from the shoulder /datum to the case head.

F. Guffey