Annealing test

[DirtySteve]

260 Ravage said:



Reloaders in the old days did not require counseling and for the most part when asked they could give good rational for doing each task. I like the one I gave; I suggested the case requires annealing to reduce the cases ability to resist sizing. Today; reloaders grind the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die to increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

Back in the old days I would use a feeler gage to raise the deck height of the shell holder, raising the shell holders' deck height increases the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

F. Guffey

So you trim some off the die or shell holder to Bump the shoulder back? And use a feeler gauge to set the amount of shoulder bump? This is done after annealing..?

 

[dkhunt14]

"It was about this time I found it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support."

Broken record!

Wow I was thinking the same thing. Reminds me of that song. Right round and round. Matt

 

[dkhunt14]

I can't imagine the window being that tight with propane. Maybe MAP or other gas, but propane is just not that hot.

4 seconds with Mapp Melts the case. The neck slides down inside the body. Matt

 

[dmoran]

@fguffey

 

[muleman69]

Please tell us how you can squeeze a neck a .0005 with pliers, to check for a .0005 spring back?....... Jim

Easy ,take some needle nose and squeeze it. Better if you can magnify the neck

 

[LHSmith]

4 seconds with Mapp Melts the case. The neck slides down inside the body. Matt

But will the shoulder move?

 

[Liven The Dream]

Just for the record ???
I live in the PNW at 4000 Ft. El + .
I have been told by the People in the Cooking Stove Stores " Gas on Propane will not Burn at the same BTUs at your Elevation "

Now with my limited annealing work to date with .308 brass. I have Lapua ,Peterson and Winchester , I find they all take different amount of time on my Mikes Machine.

I am finding this post of value.
Don

 

[muleman69]

Just for the record ???
I live in the PNW at 4000 Ft. El + .
I have been told by the People in the Cooking Stove Stores " Gas on Propane will not Burn at the same BTUs at your Elevation "

Now with my limited annealing work to date with .308 brass. I have Lapua ,Peterson and Winchester , I find they all take different amount of time on my Mikes Machine.

I am finding this post of value.
Don

We live at 2700 ft. so the fuel /heat and times can very for sure. We just did a basic test with the components we had on hand .Not rocket science for sure but did give us an idea of how much brass softens in the various stages of heat with the components we had on hand and in our environment. Lots of variables for sure so we just had to dance with who we brung

 

[fguffey]

So you trim some off the die or shell holder to Bump the shoulder back? And use a feeler gauge to set the amount of shoulder bump? This is done after annealing..?

Again, I have never found it necessary to grind the bottom of the die and or the top of the shell holder. I have found it impossible to bump the shoulder of the case back, I have bump presses and non bump presses, I am the only reloader on this forum that knows the difference between a cam over press and a non cam over press, the cam over press is a bump press. And then when it comes to adjusting a press, there is one set of instructions for the cam over press and another set of instructions for the non cam over press.

And then there is reducing the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. I size cases for short chambers by raising the case head off of the deck of the shell holder, when the case has more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome I increase the presses 'ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing by placing a shim between the case head and deck of the shell holder. I have RCBS shell holders that will allow for a .010" feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and case head.

And it appears I am the only reloader on this forum that understands case forming. I find it impossible to move the shoulder back, it is not something I discovered by accident; when forming cases the newly formed cases has artifacts of the old parent case, the old shoulder does not become the new shoulder 'MEANING!' the shoulder did not move.

Annealing: I did not invent and or build anything, I did put a few factors/rules together, I did not discover them because all of the factors/rules already existed. What I did was apply the factors/rules to an annealer I made, with all of the gigs of space used up on the Internet about annealing I have not found anything that would cause me to change the design for improvement. Again, I took a few of them to a gun show and placed them on the table, no one recognized the tools as annealers and no one was curious.

This is done after annealing..?

Most of my annealing has been done on formed cases; when annealing formed cases it is recommended the case be heated down to the position of the new shoulder; so? The reloader should decide if they are going to guess where the new shoulder is going to be located or after forming the case. And then there are those cases that have to much resisting to being formed and or sized; I suggest anneal first then form.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Cooking at altitude: The boiling point of water is reduced 3 degree for ever pound of pressure that is lost because of altitude. That is the reason case Iron works great when cooking if the pot has a heavy lid. And then there is the radiator cap that is rated at 15 psi. The 15 pound increase in pressure raises the boiling point of water in the radiator 45 degrees. And then there are all types of controls for flow for altitude.

F. Guffey

 

[Comrade Terry]

Cooking at altitude: The boiling point of water is reduced 3 degree for ever pound of pressure that is lost because of altitude. That is the reason case Iron works great when cooking if the pot has a heavy lid. And then there is the radiator cap that is rated at 15 psi. The 15 pound increase in pressure raises the boiling point of water in the radiator 45 degrees. And then there are all types of controls for flow for altitude.

F. Guffey

 

[riflewoman]

As far as fguffey’s claim that headspace of the cartridge is difficult to correct by sizing, non other than LE Wilson published an article in The American Rifleman and reprinted in the 1968 version of the NRA Handloader Guide stating that incomplete sizing changes the cartridge length to “cone” datum.

So if you do not setup your dies correctly your headspace of your reloaded cartridges in your firearm can cause serious problems. I know that as a Highpower shooter shooting reloaded ammunition in an M1A headspace control of the brass is very important and I paid particularly close attention to it.

 

[jepp2]

Which just reinforces the point, if you aren't measuring, you don't know what you have.

This illustration was created by Unclenick on TFL forum and is reproduced with his permission.

 

[pirate ammo]

4 seconds with Mapp Melts the case. The neck slides down inside the body. Matt

if the neck slides down into the body,,then where the hell did the shoulder go,,I must know,,

 

[fguffey]

As far as fguffey’s claim that headspace of the cartridge is difficult to correct by sizing,

non other than LE Wilson published an article in The American Rifleman and reprinted in the 1968 version of the NRA Handloader Guide

That is not true; I have never said the head space of the cartridge is difficult to set because the case does not have head space. And then there is that part about the cone; it would be a major mistake to introduce information about the cone on this forum. I have mentioned 'the datum; many times, if anyone on this forum understood the datum they would understand the cone.

non other than LE Wilson

I remember when reloaders referred to the Wilson case gage as a drop-in gage, no one had a clue the Wilson case gage was a datum based tool

So if you do not setup your dies correctly your headspace of your reloaded cartridges in your firearm can cause serious problems. I know that as a Highpower shooter shooting reloaded ammunition in an M1A headspace control of the brass is very important and I paid particularly close attention to it.

That is the most ridicules piece of writing I have ever read on this forum, like you are the only one that 'PAID PARTICULAR CLOSE ATTENTION???'

Back to 'mon other than L.E. Wilson'; L.E. Wilson made the Wilson case gage in the late thirties, they did not name it a head space gage, they identified the gage as a case gage. It was not until the Internet reloaders tried to name it the Wilson case head space gage.

F. Guffey

 

[dmoran]

@fguffey
_____________________________________________

 

[CharlieNC]

When I was a boy my Daddy told me something about my shoulders, but he did not reload and only shot a shotgun. Later my football coach lectured me about my shoulders; when I asked a question he answered "Hit Hard Son". So goes my experience about my shoulders, they are sore but still move. Neither was named Frank, but the stories were valuable life lessons; but don't ask me why, it's time for a Scotch.

 

[Mikemontminy]

Is this how one performs the F. Guffey shim method?

 

[johara1]

This is sure a waste of time, You can't fix stupid....... jim

 

[Webster]

Which just reinforces the point, if you aren't measuring, you don't know what you have.

This illustration was created by Unclenick on TFL forum and is reproduced with his permission.

View attachment 1046489

Nice images. Many of us have the impression that the shoulder push back is at the shoulder body junction. The change/bump is measured half way up the shoulder. This conjures up all kinds of pissing matches about case fit and the shoulder/body junction location doesn't change. I would think that the should bends at the corner but the actual location doesn't change???